Letters

Texas*Princess I have to agree with you! The whole point of the new member period is to LEARN about the sorority you just joined, not to earn the letters because you can pick up a set of letters anywhere. You may not be initiated yet but you are still apart of that sorority. Everyone knows you are a new member of which sorority/fraternity so you might as well wear the letters.

The whole process of learning in a sorority is to learn how to work as an individual within a large group of people. You don't earn that, you LEARN it. Not EARN it.

[Rio_Kohitsuji]

I don't know about this..if I was given letters after I accepted the bid..heck..I would have either thought, "Dag..they must -really- be needing members.." or "Heck no I'm not going to wear them, I'm not truely a member."

As a upcoming local we will have the -no letters before initiation- rule, I'm sorry but if I would see one of our NM's wearing them, I'd have to "explain" certain things to her while ripping those letters off

[aephi alum]

I think the difference here is that some orgs, such as ADPi, have chosen to extend the privilege of wearing letters to their new members, while others, such as AEPhi, reserve that privilege for initiates only. So AEPhiSierra is right in that for AEPhi wearing letters as a NM would be acting as if you were a sister when you're not. But t*p is also right in that for ADPi wearing letters as a NM just means you're a member, albeit a new one.

The primary focus of a new member education program should be learning more about the GLO you're pledging and about the sisters and your pledge sisters. You could call that "earning" your membership - it's a fair amount of work, and that's as it should be.

[Katey Alpha Gam]

Originally posted by AXPGoBot
Oh, so now we're against pledging at all? What exactly is being meant by pleding to you? Don't get me wrong, I'm against hazing, but you shouldn't just sit around and talk and call that earning your letters. What's so wrong with doing things like team-building activities or other new member functions? I'm not talkinga bout paddling, I'm not talking about being force-fed dog food, but sometimes people fly off the handle and scream HAZING! over the slightest little thing. What's so wrong with team-building activities like scavenger hunts, provided its handled in a mature way, or other functions similar to these? Please. Get over it. Go join Circle K or something like that if you don't feel like earning the privledge of being Greek.

I'm sorry to sound like an ass but very few things piss me off more than people who don't want to have to "pledge" to become Greek. We're not f'ing CLUBS damnit, it's so much more than that. "If you want to get to a dream, you must first pass through the nightmare." Not that I'm saying pledging should be a nightmare, but it should be a challenge, something you can feel proud of that you did, something your class can have pride in that they accomplished together. You can do that without hazing. We're not just clubs, so stop treating it like we are! These is why we're in trouble nationwide, because people just want their letters and to be greek but dont' want to have to do anything for them aside from pay dues. Like I said, if that's what you want, go join something else.

GRRR.

Sorry, this isn't meant to be directed against anyone, but I hate how people are so overly sensative about hazing, insisting that every little thing is wrong wrong wrong. It's wrong to wear pledge pins, it's wrong to be asked to do a class service project, it's wrong to have new members interview actives. ARG!!!! Think about it people, it's just plain silly.

I COMPLETELY agree with you!! I am so sick of people calling the tiniest challenging thing hazing! The whole idea of "if you have to ask if it's hazing, then it's hazing" is such junk! "Hazing" is something that is seriously dangerous on some level to the people participating. And I'm sorry but if you are dangerously permanently scarred b/c you had to work a little bit to join an organization, then you have more problems than whether or not you're allowed to wear letters. I assume that many GLO's have some kind of test they have to pass to be initiated; is that hazing? Is paying member dues hazing? I'm sorry, but it scarred me a heck of a lot more to pay $500 in 8 weeks than to have a scavenger hunt. Plus, I dunno about you but I always feel much better about accomplishing something that is difficult than something that was handed to me. Example; I went to a leadership training a few weeks ago and I did a high ropes course. On the highest and hardest element, I fell 32feet (I was harnessed so I was ok) but then I got right back up and did it again and I know that it felt sooooo much better to know that it was challenging and I failed but I still accomplished it! That is how your pledge period should be, it should be difficult, it should make you consider why you chose your GLO, it should make you work for something that you want that badly. You can't possibly deny that the times you became closer w/your class is when things got rough and you had to work together. Thats what a family does and that is what you are joining. Do you let anyone who comes around become a member of your real family? No, they have to prove themselves as someone who is a family member. I'm sure any of you who have a sibling-in-law (or someone a sibling is dating seriously), a step parent or a very close family friend know what I mean. If you can't say you are a member of the Dawson family the first day you meet them, and you can't call yourself a member of or wear the letters that tells people you are a part of my family of sisters. Also, on another note, for those of you who are fine w/your members wearing letters but not the crest; why do you think that members shouldn't wear the crest? B/c they don't know the meaning behind it usually and they have no respect for what the crest means? Hmmm, isn't that our argument for why you shouldn't be allowed to wear letters???? Interesting.

[33girl]

I just want to point out that A LOT of this has to do with the traditions and mores of the campus. I don't remember any group at my school not wearing their letters before initiation, just not wearing crests. The local sororities had the "wear words not letters" thing in place because they didn't have crests (they were working toward getting a national).

I know that if I was at a campus where none of the other groups wore letters before initiation, even if the sisters said I could, I would not want to - I would feel more "hazed" by that differentiation from other sororities than by not wearing letters.

[AlphaSigOU]

Back in the days when I was an undergrad at OU twenty years ago, the general rule in most fraternities and sororities, unless stated otherwise by national rule, was that the coat of arms (crest) was only worn by initiates and letters by both members and pledges.

As a pledge, I was allowed to wear clothing with the three Greek letters of my fraternity, which stand for the fraternity's secret motto; though I didn't know its meaning as a pledge, nor the fraternal salutation 'In Phi' or 'Phi'.

Once I was initiated into Alpha Sigma Phi, I had a much better understanding of the aims and principles of the fraternity, and the symbolism of our coat of arms means so much more to me now. Even the words of our secret motto may be heard as common words in everyday speech, but to me and those who have taken the obligations that made us members of Alpha Sigma Phi, they impart a much deeper meaning.

[adpiucf]

I am enjoying this thread tremendously. I sense a lot of hostility-- not necessarily directed at any GLO or GC'er, but at those boneheads in the past who disrespected our organizations so much that their ridiculous actions have instituted a series of state laws that spell out what you can and cannot do. I so agree it is frustrating to constantly have to wonder, "Ok is this hazing?"

For the record, I do believe that a new member should be given letters upon being extended their bid. It is my opinion b/c that is the way I was treated. In Alpha Delta Pi, a new member is regarded not as a pledge, but as a sister. They may vote, hold office, attend regular chapter meeting, wear letters and participate in all facets of sorority life with the exception of ritual. During their 6-week new member period, they attend 1 half-hour new member session a week, which culminates in an exam on the material. This same exam is administered yearly to all the sisters, too. At the time a new member is initiated she may posess our sorority crest for the first time.

I believe letters are a way of promoting an organization, and whether they are Greek Letters or "spelled out" letters, it behooves a GLO to give their members the letters to promote them on campus and show the non-Greeks that there is a strong Greek presence at school.

Just my 2 cents. I fully respect everyone else's opinion on this thread, but I humbly bid that we agree to disagree b/c everyone has very passionate ideas regarding this subject.

[Betarulz!]

Originally posted by TKE209Sweethrt
I don't know about this..if I was given letters after I accepted the bid..heck..I would have either thought, "Dag..they must -really- be needing members.." or "Heck no I'm not going to wear them, I'm not truely a member."

Both those statements are ridiculous to make. My own chapter had 67 active brothers and 17 other pledges when I joined, my chapter didn't need members at all. I know there are plenty of other chapters out there who are large and don't bat an eye when a pledge wears letters.

As for the not truly being a member, that is true (I agree pledges are simply provisional members) but you are still a representative of your cahtper during that time whether you like it or not. Your actions have very real consequences for those who are affiliated with you. In the eyes of many other people you are a part of that organization no matter what you official status may be.


I would like to say for the record that I don't oppose not wearing letters for hazing reasons, just because I think that it is a pretty superficial thing. As I said before the letters are only important because of the meaning you place on them, and the principles that they stand for. To say that a pledge cannont share in that creation of meaning while they are on their way to becoming enlightened to me doesn't really have a solid foot to stand on. Above all, I think that pledgeship should be a trial to develop you into a productive member, one who is ready to fully comprehend the importance of the ritual, rather than a test to see if you can wear the external symbols of the group. Again I can't stress teh superficiality of this all in my mind.

I would also like to add that I think 33girl (as usual) made an excellent poitn in saying that a lot of this depends on how things are done at your school.

[wptw]

Back to basics. Why do we wear greek letters in the first place? Why do we wear our badge?

If the answer is just “to promote our organization and show our pride”, then great. Hand ‘em out to everyone. Have a blast.

Well, as treacly as it sounds, my answer is: “All of the above, but primarily… to bear a symbol of the ideals for which I’ll strive the rest of my life”.

I was a pledge trainer, so I have some strong opinions about properly preparing pledges/NMs for membership. It’s about education and building friendships and working hard for something of value, certainly. But it’s also about getting them in the proper mindset to understand what is presented to them at their initiation, so they can appreciate its full impact and meaning.

The main thrust of my ritual (and virtually ever other) is the message that what makes us brothers are our shared ideals as symbolized by the letters/mottoes, the badge and various other secret signs, and that we work every day for the rest of our lives to be worthy of those symbols. If prior to taking that oath and making that lifelong commitment, these guys have already been wearing letters for the last several weeks without understanding their meaning, this very central ritualistic theme is diluted.

To use Betarulz!’ example, things like Wooglin and Kai are ritualistic, but they’re not central principles of the ritual. They’re not the essence of what makes someone a Beta. They’re the icing on the cake, but they’re not the cake itself. He uses the word “superficial”.

Betarulz! And others seem to put the greek letters in this same “icing” category. I’m not sure why. It’s odd to me that people would restrict the wearing of the badge until initiation (for good reason), but allow the wearing of the greek letters. I would argue that the letters are even MORE sacred than the badge. Ask yourself what is planted prominently on every single GLO badge? Hell, for about 20% of the NIC/NPC groups, the letters ARE the badge.

Well, that explains the varying opinions on this board. Some people consider the letters icing, and some consider them the cake itself. But I think there’s a larger agenda at work here.

This doesn’t seem to be an issue of local or chapter level preference. Most groups seem to have clear national policies one way or another. What really concerns me is this large scale campaign to eliminate all barriers between the initiated and the non-initiated. National HQs are terrified of anything that remotely resembles hazing or elitism. First we eliminate pledge programs and start calling people new members and rewrite our rituals to reflect this new nomenclature. Then we let them wear the letters. Then we call them brother and sister from day one. Then we stop requiring them to wear a pledge pin. Then we give them every privilege of membership accorded to fully initiated members. I wonder how long it will be before we’re reduced to the movie portrayal of greek inductions where the guys are herded in off the street, given a brief speech by candlelight and then thrown a letter jersey with a hearty “welcome to the frat!”

This quote scares the bejeezus out of me: “It is my opinion b/c that is the way I was treated”. This of course has been the mantra of true hazers for decades, but it’s equally frightening when used as a justification for inaction when the world is trying to dumb down the essence of what our organizations are.

I really don’t get it. I would feel completely foolish wearing something whose meaning was unknown to me. More importantly though, I can’t imagine my founders being OK with someone sporting the letters prior to taking that oath.

wptw

[AXPGoBot]

wptw:

I agree with you completely. It also scares the shit out of me the way some of these people make so lightly off their letters. To all those out there who don't want to have to pledge and just want to be handed letters and strut around in them, I have this to say to you: It's a mockery of the Greek system and you should be ashamed of yourselves, as I would be ashamed to call such people fellow Greeks. Nationwide we are in trouble of either dying out completey or becoming so diluted and careless that we're barely a shadow of what our founders intended. THAT thought scares me, and with attitudes like that, I weep for the future.

[33girl]

Originally posted by wptw
But I think there’s a larger agenda at work here.

This doesn’t seem to be an issue of local or chapter level preference. Most groups seem to have clear national policies one way or another. What really concerns me is this large scale campaign to eliminate all barriers between the initiated and the non-initiated. National HQs are terrified of anything that remotely resembles hazing or elitism. First we eliminate pledge programs and start calling people new members and rewrite our rituals to reflect this new nomenclature. Then we let them wear the letters. Then we call them brother and sister from day one. Then we stop requiring them to wear a pledge pin. Then we give them every privilege of membership accorded to fully initiated members. I wonder how long it will be before we’re reduced to the movie portrayal of greek inductions where the guys are herded in off the street, given a brief speech by candlelight and then thrown a letter jersey with a hearty “welcome to the frat!”

This quote scares the bejeezus out of me: “It is my opinion b/c that is the way I was treated”. This of course has been the mantra of true hazers for decades, but it’s equally frightening when used as a justification for inaction when the world is trying to dumb down the essence of what our organizations are.

wptw

I completely agree with this. Now I hope I don't get the crap flamed out of me, and I hope I can put this correctly. This might have been my school only, so if I'm full of crap let me know.

It seems like a much bigger deal is made of "the icing" these days - when you can and cannot wear letters, when you can and cannot wear the badge etc, how you can behave when wearing them, than there used to be. I think this is because of the reasons wptw stated - that there are so few distinctions between pledges (who, after all, you have known for maybe 5 hours when you bid them) and initiated members that there has to be SOMETHING to keep the two separate.

To put it simply: I never thought any pledges wearing letters were "skating" or "handed" their letters because I knew that they were working for them, just as I did. I don't mean getting the crap beat out of them, I mean I knew that they had pledge programs where they were learning their national history/mottoes/policies, their local history, they were doing philanthropy, they were being integrated into the campus Greek community, and they were getting to know their sisters/brothers. I'm not saying I know what was in anyone else's program, but that we all had to do things like get sigs from other Greeks. The only group I can think of that didn't had (shall we say) other constraints put on them that I personally found much more onerous than things like getting sigs from cute boys.

Oh, and someone used the nun analogy, as in when she becomes a postulant she is a nun. Well all I can say is if that was true, Maria would have been in mucho trouble for hanging out in the gazebo sucking face with Captain Von Trapp.

[shadokat]

I think that in every organization, there is a difference between a new member and a sister/brother. But to use wearing letters vs. not as way to draw that line just isn't even a big deal. The true "big deals" of all of our organizations are the values, principles and ritual through which we strive to lead our lives. Putting letters on a sweatshirt and putting them on your body does not make you a brother/sister. Learning your fraternity/sorority history, tradition, principles, et al., and incorporating them into the way you choose to live is what makes you a true brother or sister in that organization, and is why you have a common bond with those in your group. Because you all are striving for that ideal.

[Betarulz!]

Originally posted by shadokat
I think that in every organization, there is a difference between a new member and a sister/brother. But to use wearing letters vs. not as way to draw that line just isn't even a big deal. The true "big deals" of all of our organizations are the values, principles and ritual through which we strive to lead our lives. Putting letters on a sweatshirt and putting them on your body does not make you a brother/sister. Learning your fraternity/sorority history, tradition, principles, et al., and incorporating them into the way you choose to live is what makes you a true brother or sister in that organization, and is why you have a common bond with those in your group. Because you all are striving for that ideal.

That sums up my position right there.

[kappaloo]

Originally posted by 33girl
Oh, and someone used the nun analogy, as in when she becomes a postulant she is a nun. Well all I can say is if that was true, Maria would have been in mucho trouble for hanging out in the gazebo sucking face with Captain Von Trapp.

Maria was a novice, not a postulant. Actually, to be accurate, she SHOULD have gotten in major trouble for her relation with Captain Von Trapp - but she left the order instead.

t's a mockery of the Greek system and you should be ashamed of yourselves, as I would be ashamed to call such people fellow Greeks.

WOW. Can you take the back? Just because I feel that NM shouldn't wear letter doesn't mean "I don't belive in pledging" or whatever. That's really offensive.

[GeekyPenguin]

Originally posted by AXPGoBot
wptw:

I agree with you completely. It also scares the shit out of me the way some of these people make so lightly off their letters. To all those out there who don't want to have to pledge and just want to be handed letters and strut around in them, I have this to say to you: It's a mockery of the Greek system and you should be ashamed of yourselves, as I would be ashamed to call such people fellow Greeks. Nationwide we are in trouble of either dying out completey or becoming so diluted and careless that we're barely a shadow of what our founders intended. THAT thought scares me, and with attitudes like that, I weep for the future.

WE ARE NOT MAKING LIGHTLY OF OUR LETTERS. For you to call Gamma Phi Beta a mockery of the Greek system makes you look like a donky. We're not having membership problems, we're expanding. The policy of wearing letters being permissible as a new member is not just from my "small struggling chapter" that you claim is "desperate for members" which is obviously why we've existed for longer than our Alpha chapter. It's an international policy in our bylaws. If you want to disrespect us for that, fine. I don't think any of our Panhellenic sister will be very impressed.

and wptw, now that I'm done being angry, you make some very good points, some of which are why I only wore letters as a pledge when asked to, and then wore them quite a bit after initiation (like, two weeks in a row. ). Truthfully, I consider my badge (or crest) to be a more outward representation of my sorority than our letters. I think this is partially because a lot of non-Greeks don't realize that our letters mean anything, but they know there is "secret stuff" on the badge/crest, and partially because everybody can tell I'm a Gamma Phi when I'm wearing letters, but when wearing a badge or even a crest, usually only other sisters will recognize that I'm a Gamma Phi.