E-Mails Suggest Paterno Role in Silence on Sandusky

[AOII Angel]

Originally Posted by 33girl

My prediction:

Every cent of scholarship money lost is made up by PSU alums and private scholarships are created (thus opening the door to more chicanery if they get into the wrong peoples' hands).

Take that one to the bank.

They would if they are dumb. That WOULD lead to the death penalty if they were caught. You do something that stupid on probation, and you deserve what you get.

[33girl]

I didn't think there was anything to prevent someone from instituting a privately funded scholarship. I'm not talking under the table. Maybe I'm understanding the "scholarships" that are being removed incorrectly...I thought they meant ones that come straight from the NCAA.

[AXOmom]

Originally Posted by 33girl

I didn't think there was anything to prevent someone from instituting a privately funded scholarship. I'm not talking under the table. Maybe I'm understanding the "scholarships" that are being removed incorrectly...I thought they meant ones that come straight from the NCAA.

The NCAA isn't taking away scholarship money (that comes from each school's athletic fund - not the NCAA), they are taking away the number of scholarships Penn State can give out to football players. Under NCAA rules, Division 1 schools can only have 85 scholarship players on their roster each season (to keep the playing field even). Penn State will be limited to 65 scholarship players from 2014-2017, so four seasons. The alums could donate $10 million to the athletic fund tomorrow to be put towards scholarships and it wouldn't matter - they will only be able to offer 65.

[DeltaBetaBaby]

Originally Posted by AXOmom

The NCAA isn't taking away scholarship money (that comes from each school's athletic fund - not the NCAA), they are taking away the number of scholarships Penn State can give out to football players. Under NCAA rules, Division 1 schools can only have 85 scholarship players on their roster each season (to keep the playing field even). Penn State will be limited to 65 scholarship players from 2014-2017, so four seasons. The alums could donate $10 million to the athletic fund tomorrow to be put towards scholarships and it wouldn't matter - they will only be able to offer 65.

I think I heard as well that the students on scholarship get to keep them, they just don't get to play football.

[agzg]

Originally Posted by DeltaBetaBaby

I think I heard as well that the students on scholarship get to keep them, they just don't get to play football.

I hope that's the case. I mean, sure, if they wanted to play professionally they might not be able to, but at least they're still getting money toward their degree.

[AXOmom]

Originally Posted by DeltaBetaBaby

I think I heard as well that the students on scholarship get to keep them, they just don't get to play football.

Maybe I'm missing something, but why wouldn't they get to play football? They still have a football team and they will still play in the fall - they just can't play in a bowl game.

The scholarship limitations don't go into effect until 2014, so they have time to get their numbers down - they don't have to kick 20 guys off the team - they just can't sign many next year or over the next few years.

Granted, they may have some guys who don't want to play anymore after all of this and still want to stay at Penn State.

The current players can also transfer without penalty meaning they can play immediately at another school if they can find another school who will take them.

[DeltaBetaBaby]

Originally Posted by AXOmom

The scholarship limitations don't go into effect until 2014, so they have time to get their numbers down - they don't have to kick 20 guys off the team - they just can't sign many next year or over the next few years.

I thought they had to gradually cut...10 off next year, and then 20 the following. I guess you are right, though, they could just wait for guys to graduate and not replace them.

[AXOmom]

^^^ Well my understanding of the situation could be totally off, and usually what they do is simply offer fewer scholarships next year and the next, etc. to keep under the total - ESPN says to stay at 65 they will probably be able to offer only 15 new scholarships for the next few years (it's typically around 25 for most schools).

If I'm off on that however, and they do have to let guys go to stay under the limit (sometimes coaches have been known to "encourage" guys to quit to make room for more talented newcomers and stay under the limit), they couldn't honor their athletic scholarship if they kicked them off because that scholarship still counts against their total whether they play or not (I think-there may be an exception for medical issues and maybe this situation would qualify as well). They could switch them to an academic or need based scholarship depending on the circumstances, I suppose.

[KSig RC]

Originally Posted by 33girl

I didn't think there was anything to prevent someone from instituting a privately funded scholarship. I'm not talking under the table. Maybe I'm understanding the "scholarships" that are being removed incorrectly...I thought they meant ones that come straight from the NCAA.

Nothing comes "straight from the NCAA" - all athletic scholarships are paid for by the school/donors/gate receipts/etc.

You can make as many 'endowed' scholarships as you'd like, but you can only have 85 scholarship players on the roster - otherwise, every QB in the nation would magically have academic talents that earn a non-athletic scholarship.

Some sports that have "divided" scholarships (for example, baseball teams get around 12 scholarships for 25ish players) have slightly different rules, but on the whole, there's no real differentiation in how the student receives the aid.

Originally Posted by DeltaBetaBaby

I think I heard as well that the students on scholarship get to keep them, they just don't get to play football.

I'm pretty sure you're thinking of the ruling from the NCAA that any student who wished to leave the PSU football team could retain his scholarship as long as he met the other requirements set forth by rule - so if somebody said "hell with this" PSU can't cut them and take back the scholarship (as they usually can with any other one).

It's possible for football teams to 'cut' players from scholarship, but it's not the most common practice, for a variety of reasons that aren't all that important here - but the NCAA stepped in and is allowing players to voluntarily leave the roster, but retain their scholarship.

Originally Posted by DeltaBetaBaby

I thought they had to gradually cut...10 off next year, and then 20 the following. I guess you are right, though, they could just wait for guys to graduate and not replace them.

This is actually how it works out - the penalty is 20 total scholarships, starting with 10 initially, applied over the entire 4 years. They can't really just wait it out - it's 10 now, 10 more the next year, then they're capped at 65 the two after that.

Signing classes are limited 25 players up to the 85 total (which often happens due to attrition), so you can see why the penalty is considered very hard on a team - you're losing 40%+ of two classes, which might have a 50% "hit rate" anyway if you're lucky. That's without considering who would even want to sign the first few (non-bowl) years.

In many ways, PSU was crippled as a football program, but in a way that doesn't affect the rest of the Big10 or other teams PSU plays. Whether or not that's a good thing is very much up for debate.

[TSteven]

According to the Sports Illustrated article linked above, Penn State will not be able to give out more than 15 scholarships in any year during the four year span. The article noted that this is 10 fewer scholarships than the usual maximum allowed by the NCAA.

[TSteven]

This may help explain Penn State’s scholarship situation. From Philly.com

Loss of scholarships will cripple Penn State team

"As part of the sanctions agreed on by NCAA president Mark Emmert and Penn State president Rodney Erickson, Penn State football will be limited to 15 scholarships per class from the 2013-2014 academic year through 2016-2017, and cannot exceed 65 scholarship players from the 2014 season through the end of the 2017 season.

While the 2018 team will be eligible for 85 scholarships, Penn State won't have a team made up of four classes recruited at the usual 25 scholarships until 2020."

[agzg]

Originally Posted by TSteven

This may help explain Penn State’s scholarship situation. From Philly.com

Loss of scholarships will cripple Penn State team

"As part of the sanctions agreed on by NCAA president Mark Emmert and Penn State president Rodney Erickson, Penn State football will be limited to 15 scholarships per class from the 2013-2014 academic year through 2016-2017, and cannot exceed 65 scholarship players from the 2014 season through the end of the 2017 season.

While the 2018 team will be eligible for 85 scholarships, Penn State won't have a team made up of four classes recruited at the usual 25 scholarships until 2020."

Thank you - I was confused as to where the 15 instead of 25, 85 instead of 65 was coming in.

[KSig RC]

Originally Posted by agzg

Thank you - I was confused as to where the 15 instead of 25, 85 instead of 65 was coming in.

Essentially, it's a relic of the fact that students will have 5 years to complete 4 years of eligibility, so the reduction takes place both yearly and overall.

[33girl]

Originally Posted by AXOmom

The current players can also transfer without penalty meaning they can play immediately at another school if they can find another school who will take them.

I think this as a consolation prize is total bullshit. Doesn't everyone pretty much have their teams together and their scholarships given out at this point? It would be a little different if this was all happening in December or January but the timing for this to be actually helpful just isn't there.

OK, I understand re the scholarships. But what if Freddy Football Freshman gets drafted without a scholarship, and a good-hearted citizen in Freddy's hometown wants to set up a "Send Freddy To School" page on Facebook and gets more money than bullied schoolbus monitor? Will they get penalized for that? Will it matter if the good-hearted citizen is a PSU alumnus?

Even after all this, I'm betting that there are still people who would rather go into debt and play for Penn State than get a scholarship and play elsewhere. I'm sure that's not a unique matter for any school that has generations of families attending there.

[SydneyK]

Originally Posted by 33girl

Doesn't everyone pretty much have their teams together and their scholarships given out at this point?

Yes, but the NCAA has made allowances for that. If another school was interested in a Penn State player (and the player was also interested in that other school), that school could exceed its allotted number of scholarships to make room for the Penn State guy. The school would have to make up for that overage next year, but for schools that may not have much depth in a particular position, it might very well be worth it.

From what I gather from reading other coaches reactions, many are evaluating their teams depth chart and looking at the Penn State roster to see if there's a player who could help them out. ETA: Meaning, even though the teams are already together and scholarships assigned, there will still be opportunities for Penn State players to get some meaningful playing time.