After Several Years: What Do You Think of the New Release Figures?

[ForeverRoses]

^^^ what is flexing?

[Kansas City]

From the chapter perspective at least, it is basically the "what if the release numbers are off" list of who the chapter would either next be willing to release or would have next choosen to keep from their relase lists. Our chapter usually got flexed either on or off by 6-10 PNMs per day.

[gatordeltapgh]

I completely agree with Priority vs. Accept/Regret - although some still believe in AR.

I also think that Clustering is the way to go - as it was explained if you can go back to 8 chapters the next day out of 12 you give 8 a #1 and the rest a #2. This way the PNM's doesn't see each chapter with a rank but rather they see that group as the one they prefer. If one of those chapters with a #2 cluster appears on their schedule the next day it is not so bad because PNM's are clustering and not cutting certain chapters.

Flex lists work as follows:
Minus Flex Lists - Minus Flex List are required for every chapter on a campus where RFM is used. If asked for a minus flex list, your chapter must rank a number of women that you would be willing to release in addition to your carry figure. The RFM Specialist working with your campus will determine when Minus Flex List will be used and how many women must be on your chapter's Minus Flex List. The Minus Flex Lists are used by the RFM Specialists to make adjustments during recruitment as campus patterns change from year to year.

Plus Flex Lists - Most NPC groups highly recommend that all of our chapters use Plus Flex Lists, but they would never tell a chapter to take someone who did not meet their membership criteria. Plus Flex Lists allow our chapter to invite additional women to the next round of events if necessary. From time to time, one day or one party does not have the same spark as the others, Plus Flex Lists provides the chapter with protection so that the chapter has the best opportunity for a successful recruitment. Chapters that do not use the Plus Flex List greatly increase the chance that they will not make quota during recruitment.

[KSUViolet06]

I totally agree with you on the importance of educating chapters fuly about how the system works. I think 99% of the issues we had in the first year of using them resulted from the chapters not understanding how it worked and not having it explained to them well enough.

[jwright25]

(More on Flexing)

Using Flex Lists allow for adjustments to the return rates in real time - as gatordeltapgh mentioned to take into account the cyclical nature of recruiting strength seen on campuses. Especially now - as RFM is allowing more chapters the chance to pledge Quota, these chapters are becoming stronger recruiters. So they might not need all of the PNMs that have accepted their invitations.

And having PNMs flexed on or off does NOT necessarily indicate a change in your chapter's performance. It is always done by looking at retention and other considerations as a whole. Flexing on and off affects everyone, and it's always done in a way to give PNMs and chapters the best options possible.

[lyrelyre]

Originally Posted by ForeverRoses

This would extend the recruitment period, however maybe it should go back to the way it was when I rushed. We went to parties, then the day after we had something called "post office". We would go around a certain time and get the invite list- who invited us back. We would see the list, select which ones to go to, and then go on our way. If you were upset, then the Rho Chis were there to talk to you for as long as you needed. The parties were not until several hours later. You would meet at a certain time and get your schedule of parties, but you already knew who was on the list. So say first parties ended at 9pm on Sunday. From 10am-2pm on Monday you could go to post office. The second parties would then start at 6pm.

Originally Posted by Blondie93

Yes, it worked this way at my school in the early 90s, on a campus with 10 houses and over 600 women going through Recruitment. We got our invites at 8am, and parties began early afternoon. If the computers of that day could make it work, then I have absolutely no doubt that logistically (referring back to LyreLyre's post) it could work today with even better technology.

(**for those who were upset and wanted to drop... they were encouraged to accept the invites they wanted/had, return to dorm and sleep on it a bit, and then they could drop out right before the parties. This usually allowed them time to get over the hurt and most plugged right along with the rest of the week)

I agree wholeheartedly that PNMs should be choosing from the groups that invited them and not the newer method of having them rank immediately after parties. I have spoken with quite a few PNMs who stated that they "would be doing all the choosing." It has been clear that they do not understand fully that there will be cuts on the sororites' parts too, and I agree that this leads to more women dropping.

I do not agree that all of those who drop would not be devoted members. Eighteen year olds make impulsive decisions, especially when emotions are running high. I know a few from my campus who really regretted their decision to drop and could have been outstanding members. They just allowed their emotions to get the better of them.

With this system how long did recruitment end up lasting? Our recruitment currently begins on a Monday with Bid Day on Saturday. We have 11 chapters and about 650-700 PNMs.

I absolutely agree that PNMs who withdraw are not necessarily undesirable members. That is the answer I have gotten when I voiced my concerns about decreasing placement rates to various college Panhellenics. I overall like the new release figures, but if there are ways to increase PNMs placement I think they should be explored. Does anyone know if retention rates have increased with the new release figures?

Originally Posted by jwright25

What you all are discussing here is the difference between Priority Ranking and Accept/Regret. The advantages of Priority FAR outweigh the advantages of Accept/Regret - and that's why we've seen the vast majority of college Panhellenics switch to it. Consider this: Campus has 12 chapters. PNMs go to all 12 first round and can go to 8 the second round. Super Susie PNM gets invited to all 12 chapters for second round. Average Annie gets invited to 6. With A/R, Annie is somewhat depressed because she was invited to HALF the number of chapters as Susie. With Priority, Susie's list has 8 chapters and Annie's has 6. So she doesn't feel as bad. Plus she could (theoretically) "save face" and say that she got invited to her top choices if she wants.

That's just one instance. Not to mention that you can't do flexing unless you use Priority, and the advantages of flexing alone are too great to give up.

I remember one university's Panhellenic handling the ranking very well. The recruitment counselors told the PNMs to rank the 8 chapters that they loved as #1, and then the chapters that they liked as 2, 3, 4, 5. So it wasn't ever "who do you want to go back to?" or "who do you like the least?" The vocabulary was always very positive.

And regarding the A/R method of having PNMs look at invites in the morning and go to parties in the evening.... WAY more PNMs drop out when it is done this way. When PNMs get their invitations 15-30 minutes prior to the parties, they are already dressed, they are already there. There's no time for tent talking and others trying to convince them to drop. Then they go to the parties and many times actually make a connection and wind up joining a sorority. Sure, some still drop, and that's fine. But at least they gave it a chance.

(I realize that we've wandered into A/R vs. Priority discussion, but this discussion does weigh in very heavily to RFM. )

In your hypothetical, Susie and Annie would only know about each other’s schedules if they shared that information. Theoretically, a PNM could always “save face” by keeping quiet about her preferences throughout Recruitment. I know this is unlikely, as Recruitment is such a social event, but no system is going to make someone who got fewer invites feel better about themselves. If Annie and Susie are going to share schedules and invites, they’ve probably already shared the order in which they ranked the chapters.

I wholeheartedly agree that Flexing is fantastic. In my opinion, it’s one of the best parts of the new release figures.

I’m not sure even the most positive description of ranking by a Recruitment Counselor could get through to an excited 18 or 19 year old. In my experience, once a PNM knows the maximum number of chapters she can visit next round, she tends to think of chapters she ranked lower than that as “cut” by her.

As far as way more PNMs dropping out under A/R, I can only speak for the campuses (campi?) where I have advised, when I say that the number of PNMs withdrawing from recruitment increased. If that’s not true across the board, then it is even more reason for me to endorse the new release figures.

[KSUViolet06]

Originally Posted by lyrelyre

. Does anyone know if retention rates have increased with the new release figures?

I found that at my school, while there were some drop-outs after the first cut (which was on Day 2 of 4 with the new RFM), we had higher numbers of women who attended Preference and received/accepted bids.

This was different from the years before the new RFM where we didn't make any cuts until Day 3 (of 4). We would have hardly any drop-outs for the first 2 days, then there were MASSIVE drop-outs after that first cut which was halfway through recruitment. Then more would drop by Pref and we ended up with fewer than half of the girls we started with.

[ComradesTrue]

Originally Posted by lyrelyre

With this system how long did recruitment end up lasting? Our recruitment currently begins on a Monday with Bid Day on Saturday. We have 11 chapters and about 650-700 PNMs.

5 Consecutive Days:

Day 1: 10 Houses
Day 2: 6 Houses
Day 3: 4 Houses
Day 4 (Pref): 3 House
Day 5: Bid Day

"Turnaround," as it was called, was at 7 or 8 each morning. We got our invites printed out from a computer. We then circled the ones that we wanted to return to (maybe a scantron was involved?? I can't really remember).

Parties for Day 2 started around 1pm. Day 3 started around 3, and pref started around 6. (IIRC)

em_adpi might be able to shed light on current practices there. I know there are now 11 chapters and even more going through recruitment.

[ForeverRoses]

Originally Posted by Blondie93

5 Consecutive Days:

Day 1: 10 Houses
Day 2: 6 Houses
Day 3: 4 Houses
Day 4 (Pref): 3 House
Day 5: Bid Day

"Turnaround," as it was called, was at 7 or 8 each morning. We got our invites printed out from a computer. We then circled the ones that we wanted to return to (maybe a scantron was involved?? I can't really remember).

Parties for Day 2 started around 1pm. Day 3 started around 3, and pref started around 6. (IIRC)

em_adpi might be able to shed light on current practices there. I know there are now 11 chapters and even more going through recruitment.

We had 11 chapters and it was Saturday-folowing sunday. Saturday was convocation and then meet your Rho Chi Groups. Open houses were 2 days, 1st parties were 2 days, second parties 1 day and pref 1 day with bid day the following day.
And we used scantron to pick our groups.

[AXOrushadvisor]

Originally Posted by carnation

It's been several years now...what do you think?

My opinion:

GOOD--it has certainly beefed up a lot of sororities. Groups who haven't met quota for years, especially at the big schools, are now at total. Under the old rules, many of those groups would have certainly been gone by now.

In many big schools' recruitments, all the sororities have made quota for years and are even adding new groups (like Auburn, Warrrr Eagle! And Theta is coming! ) I'm so happy with the growth of the Greek systems around here.

BAD--the deep cuts after second parties are really devastating to a lot of PNMs. We know so many who have gone from 12 parties on Day 2 to 0-2 on Day 3. Frequently these are either girls from small towns who are unknown by sorority members or those from huge high schools that have lots of sorority members on that campus and the members think that their sorority will be the only one to cut Polly PNM but surely she'll have a lot of options left--but she doesn't.(I hope that makes sense.) The shock of those cuts is so rough that many drop out of recruitment (hey, they're 18) and have a bad impression of Greeks forever. Remember justamom's discussion of that at LSU?

Also, I'm told by many sorority members that more pledges are dropping before initiation. Some say that they were pressured by rush counselors to stay in recruitment when they didn't like their returns. I wonder what the dropout rate is now compared to, say, 10 years ago?

My last concern, and I've talked about this for years, is that legacies aren't being looked at as carefully because everyone's in such a hurry to cut a certain number. In the last 10 years, we only know 2 girls who were able to pledge their mom's sorority at UGA and dozens who were cut by mom's group.

So what do you think?

Hi Carnation. Having done recruitment for a long time I think there are some positive things to the new release figures and some negative things. It is my opinion that the release figures are great for 98% of the Chapters. There are still some places that I know of personally that Panhellenic does not make the PNM's go to there full party list for fear they will drop out. They still get bids AND are considered to have fully participated in recruitment. I think it has helped Chapters who historically have not made quota make quota and put Chapters on more of a level playing field in regards to size.

I think the new release figures are hard on the PNM's. I think a lot of great girls are cut because of first impressions. I think that there are a lot of girls who fall under the radar because they were not able to light up the room and impress a Chapter member in 20 to 30 minutes. I also know that we look at recs now with a different approach. If your a strong Chapter you can NOT invite back all your recs because then you would be releasing women you really want.

As far as new members dropping, we have not experienced that, but I do think there are women who find themselves in houses were they feel like they don't belong. I think the shortened educational programs also are to blame along with this generation just not being able to stick with what they start.

Lastly, to comment on the legacies. I think we do a good job at looking at them and keeping them as long as we can. Our Chapter may get 10 legacies going through, but some Chapters could have 50 or more depending on where you are. I would imagine this Chapters are letting go of legacies earlier than some other ones might. I think a legacy makes a great new member and we should try to take as many as we can, however, at my school it can be the kiss of death.

[AXOrushadvisor]

Originally Posted by gatordeltapgh

I completely agree with Priority vs. Accept/Regret - although some still believe in AR.

I also think that Clustering is the way to go - as it was explained if you can go back to 8 chapters the next day out of 12 you give 8 a #1 and the rest a #2. This way the PNM's doesn't see each chapter with a rank but rather they see that group as the one they prefer. If one of those chapters with a #2 cluster appears on their schedule the next day it is not so bad because PNM's are clustering and not cutting certain chapters.

Flex lists work as follows:
Minus Flex Lists - Minus Flex List are required for every chapter on a campus where RFM is used. If asked for a minus flex list, your chapter must rank a number of women that you would be willing to release in addition to your carry figure. The RFM Specialist working with your campus will determine when Minus Flex List will be used and how many women must be on your chapter's Minus Flex List. The Minus Flex Lists are used by the RFM Specialists to make adjustments during recruitment as campus patterns change from year to year.

Plus Flex Lists - Most NPC groups highly recommend that all of our chapters use Plus Flex Lists, but they would never tell a chapter to take someone who did not meet their membership criteria. Plus Flex Lists allow our chapter to invite additional women to the next round of events if necessary. From time to time, one day or one party does not have the same spark as the others, Plus Flex Lists provides the chapter with protection so that the chapter has the best opportunity for a successful recruitment. Chapters that do not use the Plus Flex List greatly increase the chance that they will not make quota during recruitment.

The flex list in my opinion is the WORST part of the whole thing. We hate to do them.

[AXOrushadvisor]

Originally Posted by Kansas City

Question: About PH making the "phone call" ... are we talking about flex numbers here? From the chapter I advise at smaller Greek system, a "popular" chapter might be flexed 6-12 PNMs per day but that chapter would have a say in which PNMs they were flexed on or off. Any thoughts from GC?

KC the way it works on our campus if they are on your flex list they are fair game. We spend a lot of time on those list for that specific reason.

[UGAalum94]

Originally Posted by AXOrushadvisor

The flex list in my opinion is the WORST part of the whole thing. We hate to do them.

Why? It seems like they'd be great. Is it simply uncomfortable to have a category of women who you want to keep but that you don't know if you will? Or is it that people read too much into them about how the chapter is performing and get anxious?


About JWright's great post about what to tell PNMs to "educate" them: I think you tell them at the very first meeting with the Recruitment Counselors that some chapter are required to cut a large number of PNMs after the first day and without naming any chapters, then actually give the percentages for some of the top chapters from recruitment the year before. Sure, if you get cut by a chapter you like it hurts your feelings, but if you knew that it might be one of the chapters that had to cut 50% or more, you would know you were among the majority of PNMS when you didn't get asked back to popular houses A and B.

And at the very same time that you tell the PNMS about the percentages the chapters release, you remind them that they system still works and that the groups that released that hard all made quota (or whatever) and XX% of PNMS who stayed in recruitment got bids over the last X number of years.

One of the things I've noticed is that PNMS always seem to believe there's something exceptionally hard about recruitment their year and will repeat complete myths about the number of girls dropping or being cut out or whatever being totally unprecedented. So it also might help for Recruitment Counselors to give little updates when the results are positive and maybe even to have statistics about what's normal for recruitment over the last five years, so that girls would know the system is working, rather than the PNMs telling each other, "Did you know this is the worst recruitment in the history of the SEC? The computer must be messed up. Half the PNMS have dropped out and none of the chapters are going to make quota."

The data about how things are going system wide exists, why not let PNMS in on it? "No, actually 80% of PNMs were invited to at least half the number of parties for third round, which is exactly where we were at this point last year when 90% of chapters made quota and 84% *of PNMS got the first group they listed on their bid card and another 12% got the second group. Only 2% didn't get bids, and half of them were SIPs. So RELAX, you freaks."

*I have no idea what number is realistic and this doesn't even seem mathematically possible, but you can understand my point, which is to reassure the PNMS that things are going normally.

[GammaPhi88]

Originally Posted by UGAalum94

About JWright's great post about what to tell PNMs to "educate" them: I think you tell them at the very first meeting with the Recruitment Counselors that some chapter are required to cut a large number of PNMs after the first day and without naming any chapters, then actually give the percentages for some of the top chapters from recruitment the year before. Sure, if you get cut by a chapter you like it hurts your feelings, but if you knew that it might be one of the chapters that had to cut 50% or more, you would know you were among the majority of PNMS when you didn't get asked back to popular houses A and B.

I really wish my Rho Gammas had told me that. I heard as gossip that the only reason a person would get cut after the first round is for grades, or if they really sucked. I had a steller GPA first semester freshman year, and I WAS released by a few groups (though I wasn't cut that heavily), but I still thought that these top groups thought I was awful. I know now that I was likely cut due to RFM (I was comfortable at the houses, didn't make any major faux pas, I wasn't a visible freshman partying wreck, and I didn't have a bad history with anyone in the sororities...but I digress.), but at the time, I had no idea what RFM was, so I just thought I sucked. I wish wish wish this could have been explained to me.

Originally Posted by UGAalum94

The data about how things are going system wide exists, why not let PNMS in on it? "No, actually 80% of PNMs were invited to at least half the number of parties for third round, which is exactly where we were at this point last year when 90% of chapters made quota and 84% *of PNMS got the first group they listed on their bid card and another 12% got the second group. Only 2% didn't get bids, and half of them were SIPs. So RELAX, you freaks."

*I have no idea what number is realistic and this doesn't even seem mathematically possible, but you can understand my point, which is to reassure the PNMS that things are going normally.

Another thing I wish my Rho Gammas could have told me, so I could have seen that I stood a way better chance than I thought. I was the PNM doing all sorts of google searches trying to find placement rates at my school for the past five years. It was pathetic, yes, but I won at being the most terrified PNM in the history of sororities, and my system, while competitive, is NOTHING like the SEC and doesn't even require (or regularly receive) recs. While I was an extreme bundle of nerves, I know that there were, are, and will be tons of frazzled stressed out PNMs, and past placement rates will generally help to let them know the truth's of that campus's system. (Though I think at campuses like Indiana, LSU, Bama, ect, they could be a rather unsettling thought). I think UGAalum's ideas are terrific for calming the nerves of the stressed PNMs as well as thwarting rumors of scary rush statistics, and I fully intend to bring it up to my school's Panhellenic.

[KSUViolet06]

Originally Posted by UGAalum94

One of the things I've noticed is that PNMS always seem to believe there's something exceptionally hard about recruitment their year and will repeat complete myths about the number of girls dropping or being cut out or whatever being totally unprecedented.


PNMS tell each other: "Did you know this is the worst recruitment in the history of the SEC? The computer must be messed up. Half the PNMS have dropped out and none of the chapters are going to make quota."

I LOLed @ this because it seemed like girls ALWAYS came up with some crazy story when they got cut heavily, cut by the groups who had to release the most PNMs, or withdrew because they didn't like the groups they had left.

It almost always inolves a "computer glitch."

It's usually some outlandish statement like:

"Well I dropped out because I got cut by ABC and DEF. But Amy from my group told me that there was a computer glitch and ABC & DEF could only invite back girls with last names that start with vowels. So I got cut because my last name starts with M."

Either that, or they always think that they were "this close" to getting a bid to a sorority, but didn't because some crazy thing happened:

"I got cut by ABC after 2nd party, but this girl in my group said that there was a computer glitch and ABC's list erased my name!"

If girls KNEW a little about how the RFM worked, maybe girls would be less likely to think that something crazy happened and they got cut by certain chapters or didn't get a bid at all. They're also less likely to think "I was thisclose to getting a bid to ABC but _______."

I think that even just telling them that the heaviest cuts will occur earlier on would be beneficial. At least they're prepared.