Minneapolis bridge collapses

[DeltAlum]

They just finished what was supposed to be a seven year project widening I-25 (the Valley Highway) from the Denver Tech Center to Downtown. They did a really good job, I think. The contract called for at least three lanes to be open each way most of the day (there were a few overnights -- like midnight to 5:00 AM when it was down to two lanes -- and a couple of short distance total closures overnight) and replaced ALL of the bridges going over the highway along with most of the on and off ramps. They also added Light Rail the entire length of the project. It was called T-Rex which might give some idea of what was expected.

They managed to finish it more than a year early, and under budget.

It's not that there weren't hassles, nor was the job without problems, but given how screwed up it could have made things, I was pretty impressed.

I think this was the same company that re-built a lot of the freeways in Salt Lake City prior to the Olympics, which I hear was a headache of gigantic proportions.

They must have learned from their mistakes.

[Tom Earp]

Because of this, K C metro area is re upping bridge inspectiions!

@ 10 have been targeted and I know them all very well. Some are really scarry!

Talked with a friend who is a KsDot engineer and project coordinater and what he tells me makes me worry even more! All of these have been patched over for years and years. All of these bridges are over either the Kansas or Missouri Rivers.

Talk about patch work on highways, I-70 and I-435 are continually being worked on for the simple reason some moron decided re-bar was not needed! A new concept! What a disaster. Re-bar helps the concrete stay more stable.

St. Louis Bridges have been in terrible shape for years. The one over the Mississippi River that carries I-70, wow does it need help!

Was it the Eads Street Bridge that was closed so many years open up yet?

States just are not putting money in to infrastructure and the Federal Govt. is running out of money for their big fund also.

Amazing that Pork barreling is still big but for some funky things. Oh, to be PC, they are called ear marks now!

[kathykd2005]

Originally Posted by PM_Mama00

There's been an ongoing project near AGDee and I that has closed a stretch of I75. They've been replacing all the overpasses.... actually tearing them all down and replacing them. They did the same on our Southfield Expressway. While it is an inconvenience between taking different routes, and dealing with traffic in our neighborhoods, you really appreciate it when you see stories like this.

So it's either people flipping out, or people dying. I'd rather people flip out.

I didn't say that I wanted people to die, or that I'd flip out, I just said government will have a hard time getting all of this stuff passed, since people will flip out, and make it hard to do... There wasn't really a need to give the ultimatum of people "flipping out, or people dying."

[DeltAlum]

Originally Posted by kathykd2005

...I just said government will have a hard time getting all of this stuff passed, since people will flip out, and make it hard to do...

Clearly and understatement.

We seem to want everything..but don't want to pay for any of it.

It just doesn't work that way.

[jon1856]

Originally Posted by kathykd2005

True--but like I said earlier, who is going to pay for this? Will budgets be re-adjusted in order to do so? We'll see what happens. I have no idea, I just know that the situation in Minneapolis has sparked a lot of energy on the topic.

I agree. I do not see everyone opening up their check books to write a $5,500.00 check to the government anytime soon.

But we do have to realize that what "we have been trained to think" just maybe wrong. How many years have gone by that we have been told that taxes are evil, that taxes will not be raised, that taxes will be lowered et al.

Yet we still want and need our services. We still have to pay for government operations et al.

Perhaps it is time to review tax laws and codes and how they are used and mis-used.

Perhaps it is time to ask official and politicians, at all levels, why monies from dedicated highway funds are either not being used or if used mis-used.

[kathykd2005]

Originally Posted by jon1856

I agree. I do not see everyone opening up their check books to write a $5,500.00 check to the government anytime soon.

But we do have to realize that what "we have been trained to think" just maybe wrong. How many years have gone by that we have been told that taxes are evil, that taxes will not be raised, that taxes will be lowered et al.

Yet we still want and need our services. We still have to pay for government operations et al.

Perhaps it is time to review tax laws and codes and how they are used and mis-used.

Perhaps it is time to ask official and politicians, at all levels, why monies from dedicated highway funds are either not being used or if used mis-used.

Again, as I said earlier, I have no problems with raising taxes to pay for repairs to our highways and bridges. As I said earlier, other people, who you yourself have cited, WILL have a problem with taxes being raised. Perhaps it is time for society to re-assess how they view taxes and their purpose--I completely agree, and have for a long time...

[kathykd2005]

Originally Posted by DeltAlum

Clearly and understatement.

We seem to want everything..but don't want to pay for any of it.

It just doesn't work that way.

Agreed--people do want everything and don't want to pay for it. As I said earlier--several times--I would be willing to pay higher taxes for services like repairs to highways and bridges; however, others may not feel the same way. It seems those of us posting in this thread are all coming from the same place and are on the same page.

[DeltAlum]

Originally Posted by kathykd2005

It seems those of us posting in this thread are all coming from the same place and are on the same page.

I wonder.

Let's take a real infomal, unscientific poll.

How many who read this thread would approve of a fairly substantial tax increase in order to replace decaying infrastructure?

I would.

[kathykd2005]

Put it up as a poll, see what happens...

[DeltAlum]

Originally Posted by kathykd2005

Put it up as a poll, see what happens...

Anybody know how to do that without starting a new thread? I don't.

[PM_Mama00]

Originally Posted by DeltAlum

I wonder.

Let's take a real infomal, unscientific poll.

How many who read this thread would approve of a fairly substantial tax increase in order to replace decaying infrastructure?

I would.

I vote for us to pull the hell out of Iraq, stop spending money on this bullshit, and use that money to pay for the decaying infrastructure. I vote to worry about our own country.

[AGDee]

Originally Posted by PM_Mama00

There's been an ongoing project near AGDee and I that has closed a stretch of I75. They've been replacing all the overpasses.... actually tearing them all down and replacing them. They did the same on our Southfield Expressway. While it is an inconvenience between taking different routes, and dealing with traffic in our neighborhoods, you really appreciate it when you see stories like this.

So it's either people flipping out, or people dying. I'd rather people flip out.

Originally Posted by PM_Mama00

I vote for us to pull the hell out of Iraq, stop spending money on this bullshit, and use that money to pay for the decaying infrastructure. I vote to worry about our own country.

Ok, I have to admit, that construction caused me bunches of stress. So much so, that I changed my hours to reduce the amount of traffic rage that I have to deal with on a daily basis. On top of that, every week.. every single week, some semi gets in an accident in this zone and the whole freeway has to shut down for hours and hours and, in most of the cases, someone was killed. There's got to be a safer way to go about that construction! But, I decided to stop griping about the whole thing after the bridge collapse. I just think that particular construction zone, the way it was set up, should have been CLOSED TO TRUCK TRAFFIC.

I also think that we are paying for a heck of a lot of stuff that I consider less important than the basic infrastructure. I'm not opposed to some tax increases to cover this, if I were convinced that the waste was cut from the budget first. It's not as if all of it has to be replaced immediately so the $5500 per person could be stretched out over say.. 10 years. $550 a person a year isn't that much.

[KSig RC]

Originally Posted by kathykd2005

I was under the impression that they WERE fixing it when it collapsed. It seems to me that the blame here lies with the company who was orchestrating the update/repair of the bridge. I find it very suspicious that this bridge collapsed after being worked on and was scheduled to have more work done, when it has stayed up and running for years. Someone dropped the ball on this one...

There's almost no chance, according to structural engineers, that a 4-inch gap in the roadway caused the bridge to fail. This was the work performed by the construction crew, according to reports.

The roadway construction really has nothing to do with the integrity of the structure, which is based on force elements of the truss and it's connection with the roadway on each side of the river and via the infamous "ten pins" across the span.

The very existence of the roadway crew on the bridge is likely an unfortunate strawman that will cause debate like this (and even the civil cases Delt mentioned), instead of discovery of the actual cause and problems that likely exist in other, similar bridges.

[kathykd2005]

Originally Posted by KSig RC

There's almost no chance, according to structural engineers, that a 4-inch gap in the roadway caused the bridge to fail. This was the work performed by the construction crew, according to report.

I believe it was a bit more complicated than a "4-inch gap" as you so gingerly put it. Both of these stories cite numerous problems with the bridge, most likely aggravated by the construction on the bridge:

http://wcco.com/local/local_story_217151047.html

http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/nation..._bridge03.html

In the second article, an expert states,
"I would be stunned if this didn't have something to do with the construction project," said David Schulz, director of the Infrastructure Technology Institute at Northwestern University. "I think it's a major factor."

Although there is evidence for both sides of this argument, your assertion that the viewpoint I offered is completely unfounded is ridiculous. Experts, including "engineers," as you stated, are still not sure what caused the collapse. I was simply stating my own suspicions...

[KSig RC]

Originally Posted by kathykd2005

I believe it was a bit more compliated than a "4-inch gap" as you so gingerly put it. Both of these stories cite numerous problems with the bridge, most likely aggravated by the construction on the bridge:c

http://wcco.com/local/local_story_217151047.html

http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/nation..._bridge03.html

In the second article, an expert states,
"I would be stunned if this didn't have something to do with the construction project," said David Schulz, director of the Infrastructure Technology Institute at Northwestern University. "I think it's a major factor."

Although there is evidence for both sides of this argument, your assertion that the viewpoint I offered is completely unfounded is ridiculous. Experts, including "engineers," as you stated, are still not sure what caused the collapse. I was simply stating my own suspicions...

OK - I should have been more specific, and I meant to point out a larger issue rather than acting like your suspicions were "unfounded" (everyone's are, at this point, honestly - nothing wrong with that). My bad - I really didn't mean for it to be that 'pointed' or specific to your views.

The construction itself was moderately superficial - however, there was a lot of equipment on the scene, much of it very heavy equipment, and the work went on around the clock. Could the excess weight have contributed? Surely - that's one current avenue of exploration.

Did the construction exacerbate an existing problem? This seems intuitively likely. However, we've all seen construction on bridges where part of the roadbed has been removed, altered or worked on - it's clear this doesn't usually cause the bridge to fail (which is what I meant before).

I really meant my point as more of a diatribe against news sources like CNN and FOX, which have ran wild with speculation rather than news reporting. FOX particularly ran with several "eye witness" interviews and speculation about the road construction, which should have been 'routine' (obviously), that seemed to blame the construction workers for making some catastrophic error . . . likely the problem was much more insidious than a simple worker error, though. It's just bizarre, to me.

I guess this might be something where I have deeper concerns - does the state (or the construction contractor) really check the interactions between roadway equipment, actual work and traffic with the existing structure? Do we go into a panic mode and alter every bridge with "structurally deficient" ratings (even though these are supposedly traversable)? Don't these two issues intersect in a potentially harmful way?

Again, sorry to sound like I wanted to single you out - but yeah, around here people are panicking every time a construction crew removes part of a roadbed. It just seems like it's a symptom of a larger problem, and I should have been more transparent with that thought.

Similarly, the shock-value headlines decrying the bridge's condition as "structurally deficient" really seem set to cause an uproar - and, granted, it sucks that such harsh terms are used, because it kind of invites these sort of reactions, but no one thought anything of this until a bunch of people died/got hurt. It's kind of sick, really.