Minimum Wage

[preciousjeni]

Originally Posted by ktsnake

If, however, the business and the individual agree on a wage, and that happens to be $5.15/hr., then that's what the parties agree to. Why do you get to step in and say that this wage is not alright? You're not even a party to the transaction.

Exactly.

[RU OX Alum]

Originally Posted by KSigkid

Plus, do you really want to say that every business that pays minimum wage lacks compassion? That seems like an awfully broad brush to use in painting a situation.

Did I say that? No. If I wanted to really say that, I would have really said that. But I didn't. I asked why an org. was more important than an Individual, and half answered my own question.

I didn't say that, I didn't even imply it. Not on purpose anyway. You infered something that wasn't even there, or not supposed to be. Not that all business are dis-compassionate, but they are in business for their own interestants, and I think to say other wise would be, at least partly, in error.

ETA:

I didn't read as carefully as I should have before, so I re-read and edited.

[MysticCat]

Originally Posted by RU OX Alum

Addiction's not a form of choice, its a form of disease. And no one who is addicted is of sound mind. But that is a different conversation.

I'm not so sure that its a completely different conversation. So much of this thread deals in the black and white, as though the situation is either A or Z. As is often the case, reality may be somewhere in the middle.

No, addiction is not a choice per se, and yes, it is a form of disease. But it is a disease that often has at least some roots in choices. People make a choice whether to use drugs or not. If they choose to use drugs despite the risks that come with that use, then that is their choice. Sometimes, choosing to remain addicted rather than seeking help is a choice as well. The reality of addiction and recovery from addiction includes personal responsibility, although that is certainly not all of it.

As for the minimum wage, I doubt anyone here would disagree that someone willing and able to work should be able to find work that provides payment that is fair and adequate to meet basic needs. It's easy to agree that far. But lots of people of all political and philosophical stripes can and do disagree as to whether a mandatory minimum wage helps achieve that goal or hinders achieving it. I don't know the answer, but my guess is that whether minimum wage is the right answer is somewhere between a flat out "yes" and "no," and that it is mixed in with issues of personal responsibility and a variety of competing societal interests.

[RU OX Alum]

Originally Posted by MysticCat81

I'm not so sure that its a completely different conversation. So much of this thread deals in the black and white, as though the situation is either A or Z. As is often the case, reality may be somewhere in the middle.

No, addiction is not a choice per se, and yes, it is a form of disease. But it is a disease that often has at least some roots in choices. People make a choice whether to use drugs or not. If they choose to use drugs despite the risks that come with that use, then that is their choice. Sometimes, choosing to remain addicted rather than seeking help is a choice as well. The reality of addiction and recovery from addiction includes personal responsibility, although that is certainly not all of it.

As for the minimum wage, I doubt anyone here would disagree that someone willing and able to work should be able to find work that provides payment that is fair and adequate to meet basic needs. It's easy to agree that far. But lots of people of all political and philosophical stripes can and do disagree as to whether a mandatory minimum wage helps achieve that goal or hinders achieving it. I don't know the answer, but my guess that whether minimum wage is the right answer is somewhere between a flat out "yes" and "no," and that it is mixed in with issues of personal responsibility and a variety of competing societal interests.

Not everyone has the choice to start though. The substance I was addicted to was forced upon me. I was 8. I had no choice, not really.

I chose to stop taking adderal in April 2005. It damn near killed me, and I still don't think I'm all the way better.

[GeekyPenguin]

I think the thing that bothers me is a point somebody else raised earlier in the thread - it's not the small business owners who pay minimum wage, it's the Wal-Marts and other larger stores. Do I think that's right? No. Is it a legal business practice in America? Yes.

[MysticCat]

Originally Posted by RU OX Alum

Not everyone has the choice to start though. The substance I was addicted to was forced upon me. I was 8. I had no choice, not really.

I chose to stop taking adderal in April 2005. It damn near killed me, and I still don't think I'm all the way better.

True. That's why I said "often." (It's also a good example of how hard if not impossible it is for any of us to ignore our personal experiences in conversations such as this.)

I'm really sorry you had such a time with Adderal. We took our 8-year-old off it after 3 months. We were seeing really disturbing side effects. By the time we were calling the doctor about it, he was begging us not to make him take it anymore. When we told him we had talked with his doctor and that she agreed with us that he should stop taking it immediately, he thanked us. "I haven't felt good since my birthday," he told us. (He had started taking it a week or two before his birthday.) Pretty nerve-wracking.[/sidetrack]

[KSigkid]

Originally Posted by RU OX Alum

Did I say that? No. If I wanted to really say that, I would have really said that. But I didn't. I asked why an org. was more important than an Individual, and half answered my own question.

I didn't say that, I didn't even imply it. Not on purpose anyway. You infered something that wasn't even there, or not supposed to be. Not that all business are dis-compassionate, but they are in business for their own interestants, and I think to say other wise would be, at least partly, in error.

ETA:

I didn't read as carefully as I should have before, so I re-read and edited.

You said the following: "I don't really care if some businesses suffer, because those businesses don't care if some people suffer." How else was I supposed to take that statement?

[RU OX Alum]

Originally Posted by KSigkid

You said the following: "I don't really care if some businesses suffer, because those businesses don't care if some people suffer." How else was I supposed to take that statement?

go back and re-read my edited post, I meant that businesses are out for their own profit, and that really isn't trying to generalize saying that all business are discompasionate. But business (sucessful ones anyway) are out for their own interests.

[Kevin]

Originally Posted by RU OX Alum

go back and re-read my edited post, I meant that businesses are out for their own profit, and that really isn't trying to generalize saying that all business are discompasionate. But business (sucessful ones anyway) are out for their own interests.

Why would I ever start a business for any other purpose than to look out for my own interests? Why do you think businesses should be forced to be compassionate? Their function is not to be compassionate, their functino is to make money. Sometimes making money involves hiring employees. You can't get skilled employees without paying a fair wage.

If an employee is too lazy to have skills, their wage isn't going to amount to much. What is so difficult to understand here? You haven't even proved what you minimally need to prove in order to have a persuasive argument at all -- how would an increase in minimum wage help anyone?

[RU OX Alum]

Originally Posted by MysticCat81

True. That's why I said "often." (It's also a good example of how hard if not impossible it is for any of us to ignore our personal experiences in conversations such as this.)

Yeah, I'll try to be more objective.

Originally Posted by MysticCat81

I'm really sorry you had such a time with Adderal. We took our 8-year-old off it after 3 months. We were seeing really disturbing side effects. By the time we were calling the doctor about it, he was begging us not to make him take it anymore. When we told him we had talked with his doctor and that she agreed with us that he should stop taking it immediately, he thanked us. "I haven't felt good since my birthday," he told us. (He had started taking it a week or two before his birthday.) Pretty nerve-wracking.[/sidetrack]

I'm sorry your son had to go through that. I hope he gets better, but be prepaired, as I'm still having side affects. Although I was on it for several compared to just a few months, please allow for recovery time.

There are several non-druged up options for the little ones with ADHD/whatever your son has (I have ADHD and some other stuff). Regular exerise is key. Like, almost every single day regular, helps me. Also, since he's this young, now would be a good time to teach him orginizatinal skills, etc. They're vital. I think I'm starting to tell you how to be a parent now, so I'll stop.

But seriously, if you ever have any qeustions, I've been there and will be glad to answer.

[MysticCat]

Originally Posted by RU OX Alum

Yeah, I'll try to be more objective.



I'm sorry your son had to go through that. I hope he gets better, but be prepaired, as I'm still having side affects. Although I was on it for several compared to just a few months, please allow for recovery time.

There are several non-druged up options for the little ones with ADHD/whatever your son has (I have ADHD and some other stuff). Regular exerise is key. Like, almost every single day regular, helps me. Also, since he's this young, now would be a good time to teach him orginizatinal skills, etc. They're vital. I think I'm starting to tell you how to be a parent now, so I'll stop.

But seriously, if you ever have any qeustions, I've been there and will be glad to answer.

Thanks. I apprectiate it and will remember that.

As for being objective, that's overrated sometimes I think. Few of us will ever really achieve that. I think we're better off acknowledging and understanding our biases, and understanding how our experiences, as well as those of others we may or may not agree with, have shaped our thinking.

[jubilance1922]

Originally Posted by ktsnake

There are programs and services which they can (or could have) taken advantage of. They could have availed themselves of minimum wage jobs and worked their way up. Sure, they're homeless by circumstance... are you saying that they have no responsibility for their own life's circumstances? If not, who does?

Actually, a lot of these types of programs have had their budgets slashed and donations have become less available, so where exactly are people getting help from? If there are 200 homeless people in line for 50 beds, the other 150 have no other choice than to sleep in the park.

I'm all for making people be responsible for their actions. But its not simply a "go to XYZ program and get help" situation either, because the funds simply isn't there to help everyone. So programs have to prioritize who's more important: the single mother with three kids or the single man? These are decisions that have to be made everyday.

[Kevin]

Originally Posted by jubilance1922

Actually, a lot of these types of programs have had their budgets slashed and donations have become less available, so where exactly are people getting help from? If there are 200 homeless people in line for 50 beds, the other 150 have no other choice than to sleep in the park.

I'm all for making people be responsible for their actions. But its not simply a "go to XYZ program and get help" situation either, because the funds simply isn't there to help everyone. So programs have to prioritize who's more important: the single mother with three kids or the single man? These are decisions that have to be made everyday.

How did they become homeless in the first place?

[Drolefille]

Originally Posted by GeekyPenguin

I think the thing that bothers me is a point somebody else raised earlier in the thread - it's not the small business owners who pay minimum wage, it's the Wal-Marts and other larger stores. Do I think that's right? No. Is it a legal business practice in America? Yes.

Actually in my experience it's been the other way around. I worked at a locally owned "department" store that sells everything from office supplies to wicker furniture, toys, books and gifts. Every person who worked there except for the owner would have made more money working at walmart.

(I worked there for 3 years and made minimum the entire time until minimum wage in Illinois went up.)

Most small businesses don't have the same guaranteed raises/benefits etc.

[shinerbock]

On another note regarding the homeless...the shelters I've worked in had a different priority system...I imagine it would at some point come down to man v. mom and kids, but whenever I've seen it in practice its been regarding the actions of a person. For example (I've seen this a couple times) if a guy shows up smelling like booze, he'll often get turned away. Likewise, if the person who runs the shelter saw the person sitting on the corner all day, they're likely to get turned away as well. Of course, this experience has always been in Christian shelters where staying clean and looking for a job is a requirement if you want to stay in the shelter.