MA court ruling on gay marriage ban...your thoughts?

[Kevin]

Originally posted by Lady Pi Phi
There's a difference between being a man hater and being gay.

Just because he hates men doesn't mean his gay. What I think would be most likely to happen is this kid will grow up to be abusive of women himself.
It just doesn't make sense that he would hate men, yet be sexually attracted to them.

Hell, sometimes I hate men but that doesn't make a lesbian (although sometimes I think I'd be better off )

You might have missed the part in my post that discussed the child telling his 3rd grade teacher that he was gay. I guess I wasn't specific enough there. If the kid's already identifying with that lifestyle and grows up thinking he's attracted to boys, he very likely will end up that way.

Is there anything horribly wrong with that? Maybe not. However, it would go a long way in supplying evidence to the nature vs. nurture argument here. Not completely invalidating nature, but giving more validity to the nurture side.

[kappaloo]

.

[Kevin]

Originally posted by kappaloo
I remember a conversation with a friend of mine.... she said...

'Colouring your hair blond doesn't make you blond. Being blond makes you blond'

So the question is: if you choose to be gay are you really gay?


Nature vs Nurture: Obviously it's both. But nurture doesn't mean choice.

But it does mean that there's no way to prove it except by the individual darkening an oval on a scantron. The way the legal system is moving, soon, homosexuals will be a protected class when it comes to affermative action, college admissions, etc..

If that is so, expect about 75% of the population to suddenly come out.

[kappaloo]

Originally posted by ktsnake
But it does mean that there's no way to prove it except by the individual darkening an oval on a scantron. The way the legal system is moving, soon, homosexuals will be a protected class when it comes to affermative action, college admissions, etc..

If that is so, expect about 75% of the population to suddenly come out.

**being silly** I know how to prove it... give me a couple of _those_ tapes and I'll figure out soon enough *jokes*

Seriously now... that is a scary possibility. But, forgive my ignorance of the US college admissions system - wouldn't they have to show that they need to be 'protected'.... Maybe the issue isn't with homosexuality then but the American protected class sytem. *coughdifferentissue*

I see the protection given to homosexuals as in equality under the law and freedom from discrimination... kind of how people can not be discriminated because of religion.

[Lady Pi Phi]

Originally posted by ktsnake
You might have missed the part in my post that discussed the child telling his 3rd grade teacher that he was gay. I guess I wasn't specific enough there. If the kid's already identifying with that lifestyle and grows up thinking he's attracted to boys, he very likely will end up that way.

Is there anything horribly wrong with that? Maybe not. However, it would go a long way in supplying evidence to the nature vs. nurture argument here. Not completely invalidating nature, but giving more validity to the nurture side.

No I got you.
I don't think I was being clear enough. My question was why would a guy who is seemingly a man-hater (based on something you said in your original post) want to be identified as gay? If he hates men, why be with them? (while I know the kid is only in 3rd grade and is probably having other emotional problems and this is how it's manifesting itself)

And I have to agree with Kappaloo, just because you call yourself gay, doesn't make you gay.

[Kevin]

Originally posted by Lady Pi Phi
No I got you.
I don't think I was being clear enough. My question was why would a guy who is seemingly a man-hater (based on something you said in your original post) want to be identified as gay? If he hates men, why be with them? (while I know the kid is only in 3rd grade and is probably having other emotional problems and this is how it's manifesting itself)

And I have to agree with Kappaloo, just because you call yourself gay, doesn't make you gay.

Depends on your definition. Is it a choice or a physiological condition? Or something in between?

Perhaps man-hater was a poor choice of words. Having a mother that's got the kid extremely messed up in the head.. Maybe that's more like it.

And when a child that young calls himself that, you'd have hard time arguing that they would change course at any given time. It's a lifestyle that he already identifies with and very likely will continue with.

[AGDee]

I believe that there is something inborn, which may change after a severe psychological trauma, but that mainly, it's inborn. Of course, I'm basing this on observation of my own children, not scientific methods. By 6 or 8 months old, my son smiled differently at pretty women than he did with men. He was definitely flirting with waitresses, etc. My daughter was flirty with men around the same age. When my son was 3, and we went to Disney World, he and my daughter sat with Ariel the mermaid for a picture and he was blushing and giggling. My daughter was 5 and, although she was impressed, she didn't react the same way. If there was a sudden change in their obvious preferences, then I would figure that something had happened environmentally. But, just as we can't choose which members of the opposite sex make us feel giddy inside, homosexuals can't choose who makes them feel giddy. Each of my kids has already experienced a crush on a classmate or teacher of the opposite gender and did so before 3rd grade.

I don't think that any of us can choose who we are sexually attracted to. I've been out with plenty of nice, good looking guys for whom I felt no "chemistry" and I've never felt "chemistry" with a woman. I can't control who I feel chemistry with!
Sometimes you might feel chemistry with someone that you know you can't be with.. someone who is married, a co-worker, etc. You just suppress it and get on with life. So you do choose who you decide to pursue a relationship with. But, if someone only has feelings for members of your same gender, is it really fair to ask them to suppress that and not enjoy a loving, romantic relationship for their entire life??? And, some will argue pedophiles have to suppress their feelings, but I see that as different because pedophiles' relationships aren't between two consenting adults.
I have a hard time seeing what is wrong with two consenting adults choosing to commit themselves to each other for life. It is what we encourage heterosexuals to do.

Dee

[mu_agd]

Originally posted by GeekyPenguin
Does anyone else ever wish GC had an lj-cut?

all the time!!

[Lady Pi Phi]

Originally posted by ktsnake
Depends on your definition. Is it a choice or a physiological condition? Or something in between?

Perhaps man-hater was a poor choice of words. Having a mother that's got the kid extremely messed up in the head.. Maybe that's more like it.

And when a child that young calls himself that, you'd have hard time arguing that they would change course at any given time. It's a lifestyle that he already identifies with and very likely will continue with.

But how do you know that he really isn't gay?

When I was in third and fourth grade I can remember having crushes on some of the guys in my class. While I never called myself straight, looking back now it seems that those crushes were a good indicator that I was heterosexual.

[Kevin]

Originally posted by Lady Pi Phi
But how do you know that he really isn't gay?

When I was in third and fourth grade I can remember having crushes on some of the guys in my class. While I never called myself straight, looking back now it seems that those crushes were a good indicator that I was heterosexual.

I simply meant to point out in this case that there was indeed a lot of nurture (rather than nature) contributing to his condition. How do you know that he is?

The chances of his psychological condition having anything to do with a physiological one are miniscule. Especially since you can't say with any certainty that homosexuality is even a physiological condition. If there were I mean, hell, we just give the kid a blood test and we're done.

[mu_agd]

the first marriages took place this morning. they were lined up for much of the weekend in cambridge where they began issuing certificates just after midnight. it was expected that many would seek to waive the three day waiting period and get married immediately.

Same-sex couples begin marrying in Massachusetts
First state to allow such unions
Monday, May 17, 2004 Posted: 1:19 PM EDT (1719 GMT)


CAMBRIDGE, Massachusetts (AP) -- Same-sex couples began exchanging marriage vows in Massachusetts on Monday, marking the first time a state has granted gays and lesbians the right to marry and making the United States one of at least four countries where homosexuals can legally wed.


the rest of the article can be found
here