Why are recs absolutely necessary at some schools, while not expected at others?

[DeltaBetaBaby]

Originally Posted by amIblue?

I'd love to hear from some actives regarding how important they think recs are.

I just want to point out that there are schools (like my alma mater, though I know the SEC has dwarfed us since my day) that have huge numbers and very few recs sent in advance. Certainly we managed to figure out how to get from 1200 women to around half that after the first round.

I'm not going to get into MS details, but it's not as though you have NO information on a woman before she walks in the door. Everyone fills out a rush application with high school activities, awards, honors, etc...the same stuff you'd probably find on a rec from an alumna who just met the PNM. You obviously have GPA's and class standing, as well.

(NB: I still maintain that, once chapters are 100+, you could do a random draw of names and everyone would be just fine.)

So what is the rec really doing?

1) Showing that the PNM did her homework in advance. Are women who haven't done this more likely to drop out? Will they be surprised by the financial or time commitments? I have no idea; it would be an interesting thing to find out, though I can think of almost no way to do so.

2) Making sure she doesn't have an arrest record or anything. This is a good thing, I think, but again, I don't think that getting a rec from an alumna of every group is necessarily necessary to accomplish this.

At the same time, I see some major downsides. For starters, it perpetuates a class eliteness that I personally find to be one of the most objectionable things about the Greek system. Obviously, that's inherent in recruitment anyway, but let's be honest that women from less-privileged backgrounds are going to have a very difficult time finding recs.

[AOII Angel]

Originally Posted by DeltaBetaBaby

I just want to point out that there are schools (like my alma mater, though I know the SEC has dwarfed us since my day) that have huge numbers and very few recs sent in advance. Certainly we managed to figure out how to get from 1200 women to around half that after the first round.

I'm not going to get into MS details, but it's not as though you have NO information on a woman before she walks in the door. Everyone fills out a rush application with high school activities, awards, honors, etc...the same stuff you'd probably find on a rec from an alumna who just met the PNM. You obviously have GPA's and class standing, as well.

(NB: I still maintain that, once chapters are 100+, you could do a random draw of names and everyone would be just fine.)

So what is the rec really doing?

1) Showing that the PNM did her homework in advance. Are women who haven't done this more likely to drop out? Will they be surprised by the financial or time commitments? I have no idea; it would be an interesting thing to find out, though I can think of almost no way to do so.

2) Making sure she doesn't have an arrest record or anything. This is a good thing, I think, but again, I don't think that getting a rec from an alumna of every group is necessarily necessary to accomplish this.

At the same time, I see some major downsides. For starters, it perpetuates a class eliteness that I personally find to be one of the most objectionable things about the Greek system. Obviously, that's inherent in recruitment anyway, but let's be honest that women from less-privileged backgrounds are going to have a very difficult time finding recs.

This. It's just tradition now and changing to a system without recs would be as likely as SEC chapters giving up their tailgating spots on gameday.

[amIblue?]

Originally Posted by AOII Angel

This. It's just tradition now and changing to a system without recs would be as likely as SEC chapters giving up their tailgating spots on gameday.

Well, now you're just talking crazy.

[Hartofsec]

Originally Posted by DeltaBetaBaby

So what is the rec really doing?

[. . .]

2) Making sure she doesn't have an arrest record or anything. This is a good thing, I think, but again, I don't think that getting a rec from an alumna of every group is necessarily necessary to accomplish this.

Well, not even that, necessarily. A few summers ago (about 6 weeks prior to recruitment at Bama) some girls from this area were arrested on a fairly minor charge, and taken to a nearby county jail. I’m not sure that this would have become common knowledge, except that their bedraggled and tearful mug shots were posted on the county jail’s website for 30 days, along with every other thug who might actually be a menace to society. I felt kinda bad for them (and their parents). I understand that these girls were otherwise regarded as strong PNMs.

Imagine how fast this flew via phone to every kid their high school. And those kids' moms, and their mom’s friends, and alums . . .

And if this nightmare could possibly be any more awkward – it was – one of the girls had an older sister who was rush chair at one of the Bama chapters.

I’m sure there was a lot of pearl-clutching all around, but amazingly, in the end, all three girls pledged really strong chapters (with recs) – two pledged where the sis was rush chair.

I don’t really know how alums in general would know of existing criminal records other than in a case like this. Aren’t some charges expunged for minors anyway?

[greekdee]

I would SO love to hear from actives about the importance of recs! Some of the info on recs is the same info on resumes and even registration forms. This, by the way, is a very interesting thread. Thanks for starting it, Hartofsec!

[Hartofsec]

Originally Posted by greekdee

I would SO love to hear from actives about the importance of recs! Some of the info on recs is the same info on resumes and even registration forms.

That is what I'm wondering -- how does (potentially) the same information that PNMs can submit themselves carry more weight when submitted on a rec form? (acknowledging that actual personal recommendations carry weight)

Honestly, if a PNM claims on their resume to be the 9th grade 1st runner-up to Miss Sweet Potato, I don't research and verify that detail.

FTR, I'm questioning (and sometimes laughing at) myself as much as anyone -- I'm in the tradition. I only submit hard copies, for instance, and I prefer hard copies of the resume packet. Why? Because I've always done things that way.

[gee_ess]

Recs will never go away in the SEC...it is too ingrained in the culture of sorority life of that region (the above conversation about 'who are your people?' is proof enough that the habits and cultural customs of this part of the country are slow to die).

A couple of comments on their use:
I do NOT write recs for girls I do not think will represent my group well. I feel responsible to my group,and I do not write a rec unless I have vetted the young woman. If I find out something I do not like, I simply do not send the rec. I do not believe in a rec for a rec's sake. That kind of thinking is problematic and negates the whole purpose for a rec.

Second, my experience with actives (as a rush advisor) is positive regarding their use of recs. My chapter makes them readily accessible during work week and encourages the girls to study, read, and utilize the information found in the recs. The recs are an extension of the work week activities and prep. IMO, chapters who do not make recs an integral part of work week are missing out on a key part of the recruitment process.

Lastly, I can't speak for all houses, but in my experience, the chapter is often very aware of the out of state girl, the girl from the tiny town of 250, the girl from Boston, etc and recognizes she is not from 'the SEC machine"and that her recs may be fewer in number or less sparkling and gushing as those from women in our state. It doesn't always mean an automatic release, but I have certainly heard an active say "She is from Nowhereville, USA, has great grades and activities. We should meet her!"

I think the problem with recs is that they are abused by some alumnae groups - the ones who hold rec writing afternoons and write recs on all the young women who have registered with their group. And so, recruitments are flooded with empty recommendations.

[Hartofsec]

Originally Posted by gee_ess

Second, my experience with actives (as a rush advisor) is positive regarding their use of recs. My chapter makes them readily accessible during work week and encourages the girls to study, read, and utilize the information found in the recs. The recs are an extension of the work week activities and prep. IMO, chapters who do not make recs an integral part of work week are missing out on a key part of the recruitment process.

I do see the utility in actives knowing information about the girls coming through -- activities, interests, grades, etc (this was probably easier back in the bad ol' days when the recruitment numbers were lower and the recs far fewer). This helps chapters rush more effectively, and the objective info (like grades and activities) can help make decisions between invites and necessary releases (especially in huge recruitments where there are a lot of girls and little time to chat).

But I'm wondering -- is the info the actives are interested in the objective info instead of the box Mildred A. Lum checked on *how long have you known the PNM,* or *has good moral character,* for instance?

If so, could the same be accomplished via the info submitted by PNMs during online recruitment registration?

Not to be peppering you with questions -- just sort of devil's advocating our status quo.

[IUHoosiergirl88]

As an active in a non-SEC school, recs meant absolutely nothing to me. Sure, we knew if a girl had a rec, but I cared more about if that PNM was going to fit in with our chapter than if they had a rec. A rec doesn't tell me anything about that girl's personality, her likes/dislikes/desires in a chapter, or what she stands for as a person. Those are things that mattered most to me as an active, and I felt I could only find out through conversation, not on a piece of paper.

[AnchorAlumna]

I’ve been writing recs since I graduated in 1974. The last couple of years I’ve been lucky enough to be working with a chapter during recruitment.

I’ve seen crap recs and great recs, both in SEC and non-SEC schools, and from all over the country. Southern ladies can write garbage recs as well as anybody else; non-Southerners can write wonderful recs. Depends on the alumna and her training when she was a collegiate.

A great rec is where the alum knows the girl, has known the family forever and can tell you cute stories about her from Sunday’s church service.
A great rec is also where the alum doesn’t know the girl, maybe doesn’t know the family, but knows people who know them – through church, school, work, etc. A great rec verifies grades, verifies honors, tells you something about her personality, morals, background…good or bad! Say Sally PNM says she was Junior Miss for her county, and the alum says she was 2nd runner-up Junior Miss (which has happened once or twice). This says worlds about the PNM – aren’t you glad you found out before you pledged her?? Or the alum lets you know about major drama, the family filed for bankruptcy, a parent was found guilty of murder…doesn’t happen often, but it does happen. That stuff you aren’t going to find on a PNM’s application.

OTOH, a crap rec is where an alum just put in the same info the PNM did and signs. Tells us NOTHING about the girl…kind of like the rec where the alum meets the PNM for the firs time for a 20-minute coffee date. I hate those. It doesn’t help one bit. I'd just as soon have no rec!

I would not necessarily discount the girl with no rec. If they're interested, the chapters I’ve worked with do try to find out something about the girl.

As far as the entire chapter reading the rec, no, that doesn’t happen. Recs actually become more and more important toward the end of recruitment. A rec is a chance for an alum to say “go for it” or “warning.” It’s up to the chapter to make the final decision.

Busy work for the PNMs? I do hate that they’re told they have to get them. It shouldn’t be that way – it should be the chapter working with their alumnae to get them. Hard to get 2,000 of them without some help, though!

A few of you have bemoaned the fact that you wrote a rec or three, and the chapter didn’t pledge them.

Out of the 40 to 50 recs I write every year for girls from my hometown, maybe 3 or 4% pledge Delta Gamma. Plenty of years nobody pledges DG. That’s just statistics. You have to look at the long-term view. Out of 38 years, I have recommended 76 or so new Delta Gammas, and that’s not too bad!

[Hartofsec]

Originally Posted by AnchorAlumna

A great rec is where the alum knows the girl, has known the family forever and can tell you cute stories about her from Sunday’s church service.
A great rec is also where the alum doesn’t know the girl, maybe doesn’t know the family, but knows people who know them – through church, school, work, etc. A great rec verifies grades, verifies honors, tells you something about her personality, morals, background…good or bad! Say Sally PNM says she was Junior Miss for her county, and the alum says she was 2nd runner-up Junior Miss (which has happened once or twice). This says worlds about the PNM – aren’t you glad you found out before you pledged her?? Or the alum lets you know about major drama, the family filed for bankruptcy, a parent was found guilty of murder…doesn’t happen often, but it does happen. That stuff you aren’t going to find on a PNM’s application.

But asking someone else what they have heard isn't really verification. And you could also be asking someone (even an alum) who doesn't like the PNM's mom, or whose daughter wasn't invited to the PNM's 16th birthday bash. Some moms (yes, even alums) can be a little less than objective where girls their daughter's age are concerned -- even a little vengeful.

It's hard to tell sometimes where the line between vouching for ends and meddling in begins.

Just food for thought -- when PNMs ask around similarly regarding the reputation of a chapter, they are thought to be soliciting tent talk.

.

[AnchorAlumna]

A good reason to have two from two different alums of the same sorority.

[IUHoosiergirl88]

Originally Posted by AnchorAlumna

Say Sally PNM says she was Junior Miss for her county, and the alum says she was 2nd runner-up Junior Miss (which has happened once or twice). This says worlds about the PNM – aren’t you glad you found out before you pledged her?? Or the alum lets you know about major drama, the family filed for bankruptcy, a parent was found guilty of murder…doesn’t happen often, but it does happen. That stuff you aren’t going to find on a PNM’s application.

Maybe I'm not worthy of understanding these Southern pearl clutching issues, but why would I care if someone's parent was found guilty of murder or something of that nature? That PNM may be estranged from that family member and likely has little to no connection to that individual at that point. It's not as if that PNM was the murderer! Perhaps that PNM wanted a new start away from those issues. What if the PNM had been a victim of domestic violence and the rec writer mentioned that?

In addition, how does the active know which to believe--the alum or the PNM? She likely does not know you from Sally Smith, and while you are a sister of her sorority, that doesn't necessarily mean that she trusts your information to be 100% accurate either.

[Titchou]

Originally Posted by IUHoosiergirl88

Maybe I'm not worthy of understanding these Southern pearl clutching issues, but why would I care if someone's parent was found guilty of murder or something of that nature? That PNM may be estranged from that family member and likely has little to no connection to that individual at that point. It's not as if that PNM was the murderer! Perhaps that PNM wanted a new start away from those issues. What if the PNM had been a victim of domestic violence and the rec writer mentioned that?

In addition, how does the active know which to believe--the alum or the PNM? She likely does not know you from Sally Smith, and while you are a sister of her sorority, that doesn't necessarily mean that she trusts your information to be 100% accurate either.

Thank God I have a double strand to clutch! Seriously though, it is different for us "old world" folks. We would know if they were estranged from that family member. And the chapters who really use recs know who their alums are and who writes good recs and who doesn't. I've worked many a back room at recruitment time in the SEC and without giving away MS information I can tell you that we can tell and we know and we discount some and some we give more "weight" to. It's not just filling in a blank with us. I know that's hard to understand for some people but for us, we've lived it all our lives and it's just part of the culture.

[MaryPoppins]

Originally Posted by Titchou

I can tell you that we can tell and we know and we discount some and some we give more "weight" to. It's not just filling in a blank with us. I know that's hard to understand for some people but for us, we've lived it all our lives and it's just part of the culture.

This.