The Confederate Flag

[DrPhil]

Originally Posted by AOII Angel

We just don't do that in the south...it's called southern hospitality.

Southerners have a history of being rude whether in your face or behind your back. LOL. Even the phrase "southern hospitality" was initially used to describe a culture of white inclusion and nonwhite exclusion. Be hospitable to those who belong here and don't be hospitable to those who need to either get back on that ship or move Up North.

The dynamics discussed in this thread are rooted in group conflicts and pursuit of group power. Those in power found the least powerful groups to manipulate in pursuit of economic and political power. It wasn't "personal" but it darn sure involved some rudeness. The South is not the only area that participated in this but it darn sure is the only region still holding onto things like "southern hospitality."

[amIblue?]

Originally Posted by AOII Angel

Looks like rebel flag prom dress girl went to the dance by herself.

Count me in as a born and bred southerner that cringes when I see the Stars and Bars flying. I think for most of our states, the history is too tinged with violence connected to that flag, and throwing it up in the faces of our fellow citizens is rude and inflammatory. Yes, you have the right to fly that flag, but you can also be rude to someone's face. We just don't do that in the south...it's called southern hospitality.

I'm completely with you, AOII Angel. I love being a Southerner. I love parts of Southern culture; parts of our history make me cry. In graduate school, I specialized in Southern Literature. That being said, I have seen all too many white Southerners claim "heritage not hate" publicly and privately claim, well, let's just say a less positive spin on things. I declined my opportunity to join the UDC because of this. I do not claim that everyone involved with the Sons/Daughters of the Confederacy are this way, but I've met enough to know that I don't want to be associated with it.

I believe in thorough understanding and teaching of our history, lest we repeat it. One needs to examine the warts and all of the past, and I believe that all too often, the "heritage" group overlooks the warts. I understand why we want to revere some of those ideals, but there was too many horrifying things associated with that time in our history to simply gloss over.

[Low C Sharp]

Now there's two things in the thread that I don't get. Isn't it possible to make an effort to understand something and fail? Isn't it sometimes true that there's a hole in the logic of the concept that you're trying to understand? When I say "I don't get it," how do you know that I haven't listened and tried to understand?

I grasp intellectually that some people choose to put aside history when they are supposedly honoring history. ONE of the numerous historical Confederate flags was used for racial intimidation in the 20th century, not just by the KKK, but by the millions of pro-segregationist voters, White Citizens' Councils, etc. who condoned or supported terrorism against black people, even if they did not themselves practice it. The whole point of terrorism is that you use violence against a small number of people to place the whole population in a state of fear. Watch the newsreels from the night before James Meredith entered Ole Miss -- all those students with flags on their cars weren't Klansmen, but they used that flag to make clear their support for apartheid (and for Meredith getting the hell out if he valued his safety). So I grasp intellectually that there are some people who choose to wave that terrorism-tainted flag, instead of a different Confederate flag, and claim that they aren't invoking the segregationists. I grasp that, but it sure doesn't make any sense to me.

Flags stand for principles. The fact that one group of people with genocidal principles (Nazis) was more successful at murder than another group of people with genocidal principles (the Klan) doesn't effect how horrible those principles are. Al Qaeda wasn't any less vile in 1995, when they'd killed just a handful of people, than they are today. It's the idea that's evil, not just the actions.

[DrPhil]

Originally Posted by Low C Sharp

Now there's two things in the thread that I don't get. Isn't it possible to make an effort to understand something and fail? Isn't it sometimes true that there's a hole in the logic of the concept that you're trying to understand? When I say "I don't get it," how do you know that I haven't listened and tried to understand?

The same way you can dismiss the logic as inherently flawed. This is all about meanings attributed to symbols, group dynamics, and language.

People should not say "I don't get it" if they really mean "I understand what you are saying but do not see how people can ignore history and I disagree with it." That will let others know that you are not confused and do not need the same thing explained over and over again using different words.

[thetaj]

Southern Pride: You Get It Or You Don't

[steveg]

Originally Posted by thetaj

Southern Pride: You Get It Or You Don't

The one thing you cannot change is "HISTORY"!

It happened right or wrong!

A flag or banner is just that.

There are people today who will ignore the Flag/banner of the USA.

Now, my question are you one of them?

Down the road, history and those who are still here will ask the same question!

Will this also go for your fraternity/sorority Flags/banners?

Get over it, please!

People died for their beleifs are you redy to do that?

Sounds like B S to me!

[PiKA2001]

Originally Posted by steveg

The one thing you cannot change is "HISTORY"!

It happened right or wrong!

A flag or banner is just that.

There are people today who will ignore the Flag/banner of the USA.

Now, my question are you one of them?

Down the road, history and those who are still here will ask the same question!

Will this also go for your fraternity/sorority Flags/banners?

Get over it, please!

People died for their beleifs are you redy to do that?

Sounds like B S to me!

WTF?

[Munchkin03]

Originally Posted by steveg

The one thing you cannot change is "HISTORY"!

It happened right or wrong!

A flag or banner is just that.

There are people today who will ignore the Flag/banner of the USA.

Now, my question are you one of them?

Down the road, history and those who are still here will ask the same question!

Will this also go for your fraternity/sorority Flags/banners?

Get over it, please!

People died for their beleifs are you redy to do that?

Sounds like B S to me!

I already know the answer to this question but I'm just gonna ask anyway...

...are you drunk?

[*winter*]

So...I've thought about it, and I've come to 2 conclusions:

1) I guess I assume people in general are always more pleasant in the south and more confrontational in the north, which leads to point 2...

2) I have a very skewed world view!

As for the entire issue of what Northerners think of the CF and why...pondering this on the way home from work...where I'm passed by a lifted old Ford truck- giant tires, gun rack, swerving in and out of lanes aggressively- and, you guessed it- sporting a CF decorative plate! THIS is the image we come to associate with those who use the flag. Thing is, growing up in a city, I never really saw CFs until I went awayto college. And then, they were never flying proud in front of a nicely manicured split level ranch...but posted next to signs like "Insured by Smith & Wesson"'and "Redneck and Proud!". Really...around here, that is the typical CF fan. So we tend to associate them with such folks.

After living in the South in the military, and working with a diverse group of people, I've come to understand the fact that it's seen differently in the south. Normal people fly it as a symbol of their heritage.

It's just (and sadly, too) gotten a terrible rap around here due to all those who use it simply as a form of showing pride in the wrong things. It also intimidates minorities because of that association. Whenever I do field visits with other staff members, the non white ones start to get nervous when they spot a few in the country. Which brings me to my next point- these jokers give ALL rural people a bad name- many of the non-white field staff members were very unsure about visiting my county field area because of all the heresy that "those people are racist." when I got them out and meeting people, they realized what everyone does- the majority of small town PA people are not imbred hateful people, but just normal folks who have problems and are glad to accept some assistance with them, regardless of the race of the engineer.

People like that just screw it up for everyone.

[thetaj]

Originally Posted by *winter*

So...I've thought about it, and I've come to 2 conclusions:

1) I guess I assume people in general are always more pleasant in the south and more confrontational in the north, which leads to point 2...

2) I have a very skewed world view!

As for the entire issue of what Northerners think of the CF and why...pondering this on the way home from work...where I'm passed by a lifted old Ford truck- giant tires, gun rack, swerving in and out of lanes aggressively- and, you guessed it- sporting a CF decorative plate! THIS is the image we come to associate with those who use the flag. Thing is, growing up in a city, I never really saw CFs until I went awayto college. And then, they were never flying proud in front of a nicely manicured split level ranch...but posted next to signs like "Insured by Smith & Wesson"'and "Redneck and Proud!". Really...around here, that is the typical CF fan. So we tend to associate them with such folks.

After living in the South in the military, and working with a diverse group of people, I've come to understand the fact that it's seen differently in the south. Normal people fly it as a symbol of their heritage.

It's just (and sadly, too) gotten a terrible rap around here due to all those who use it simply as a form of showing pride in the wrong things. It also intimidates minorities because of that association. Whenever I do field visits with other staff members, the non white ones start to get nervous when they spot a few in the country. Which brings me to my next point- these jokers give ALL rural people a bad name- many of the non-white field staff members were very unsure about visiting my county field area because of all the heresy that "those people are racist." when I got them out and meeting people, they realized what everyone does- the majority of small town PA people are not imbred hateful people, but just normal folks who have problems and are glad to accept some assistance with them, regardless of the race of the engineer.

People like that just screw it up for everyone.

This.

[*winter*]

Didn't mean to offend...particularly not someone as nice as SWTXBelle!

I just have been so exposed to the idea that flying the flag means someone is being arrogant or racist. We had a horrible incident in 08 when Obama got elected...the person who created the little piece of violent artwork was also sporting a 10x10'CF on their storage tent. That is just one incident...

Again, not an excuse to judge everyone on those people's actions....sorry.

As for the question, would someone rip it down in a Northern black neighborhood? I'm willing to bet yes. People up north rip down signs for the "other guy" in politics, they rip down and/or TP signs for the rival sports team...I'm not saying I agree but I can see that haopening. Heck, immured enough to go hang one inthe neighboring town, on an abandoned house, and see how long it lasts...

[*winter*]

*I'm bored enough*

[steveg]

Isn't it true that there will always be racisim?

Hey, back when the Italians, Irish, Germansand Jews were werew int the same boat?

This country is a mish mash of people, right?

But times are changing. Just look at greek web sites!

Again, history was and is there, you cannot change it, so quit trying.

[BluPhire]

Originally Posted by steveg

Isn't it true that there will always be racisim?

Hey, back when the Italians, Irish, Germansand Jews were werew int the same boat?

This country is a mish mash of people, right?

But times are changing. Just look at greek web sites!

Again, history was and is there, you cannot change it, so quit trying.

Do you understand the words coming out of your mouth?

[MysticCat]

Originally Posted by steveg

The one thing you cannot change is "HISTORY"!

It happened right or wrong!

A flag or banner is just that.

There are people today who will ignore the Flag/banner of the USA.

Now, my question are you one of them?

Down the road, history and those who are still here will ask the same question!

Will this also go for your fraternity/sorority Flags/banners?

Get over it, please!

People died for their beleifs are you redy to do that?

Sounds like B S to me!

Originally Posted by steveg

Isn't it true that there will always be racisim?

Hey, back when the Italians, Irish, Germansand Jews were werew int the same boat?

This country is a mish mash of people, right?

But times are changing. Just look at greek web sites!

Again, history was and is there, you cannot change it, so quit trying.

Hi Tom.