too broke to bury their dead

[agzg]

Oh good lord. I agree - this is far too emotional a topic for people to be civil.

[RU OX Alum]

Originally Posted by agzg

Oh good lord. I agree - this is far too emotional a topic for people to be civil.

I think some discivility might be good.

[deepimpact2]

Originally Posted by PM_Mama00

PEOPLE CAN'T MOVE BECAUSE THEY HAVE NO MONEY. MOVING COSTS MONEY. PEOPLE CAN'T SELL THEIR HOUSE. THEY CAN'T PAY FOR A SECOND HOUSE IN ANOTHER LOCATION BECAUSE THEY HAVE LOST THEIR JOBS/BUSINESS THEREFORE HAVING NO MONEY TO MOVE.

Do you understand now?

It is REALLY sad that you have to post this, but it just goes to show that some people just don't use common sense.

[Little32]

Originally Posted by RU OX Alum

Yeah....regardless of how Detroit got into this mess, it's in this mess, and I feel for the people too poor to bury a relative.

That's sad, and I don't care about unions that much one way or the other, but it's sad that people are too poor to cremate their own, whether their own family or their own citizens.

And this is really the bottom line (and you are not the only one who has said this in this thread, but you said it so succinctly I thought I would quote you.) When people can look at this situation and be so lacking in empathy as to label it as a deserved consequence, then we are looking at a crisis of humanity, which is far more disturbing than the economic crisis that we all are now facing.

Also, you would think that the collapse would have demonstrated the "inextricable web of mutuality" in which we all are intwined. For those who think that Detroit's collapse affects only those in Detroit, has the last year shown you nothing?

It is an unfortunate situation all around.

[Elephant Walk]

Originally Posted by Little32

Also, you would think that the collapse would have demonstrated the "inextricable web of mutuality" in which we all are intwined. For those who think that Detroit's collapse affects only those in Detroit, has the last year shown you nothing?

How so?

[KSigkid]

Originally Posted by Little32

And this is really the bottom line (and you are not the only one who has said this in this thread, but you said it so succinctly I thought I would quote you.) When people can look at this situation and be so lacking in empathy as to label it as a deserved consequence, then we are looking at a crisis of humanity, which is far more disturbing than the economic crisis that we all are now facing.

Also, you would think that the collapse would have demonstrated the "inextricable web of mutuality" in which we all are intwined. For those who think that Detroit's collapse affects only those in Detroit, has the last year shown you nothing?

It is an unfortunate situation all around.

I don't know that anyone could seriously argue that Detroit's collapse has only affected Detroit, and I'm not sure anyone in this thread is arguing that. Anyone who has lived in an area with a car dealership knows that the effects have been far-reaching.

Again, I'm not sure anyone here is saying that the citizens of Detroit "deserve" what has happened. I look at the Detroit (and Detroit-area) citizens as, for the most part, victims in this whole thing. This all has come about because of greedy executives, union heads, and political entities, each of whom operated in a way that was doomed to fail at some point. Unfortunately, the people who are bearing the brunt of this are people who had no responsibility for the bad decisions in the first place.

It's a nasty situation.

[KSigkid]

Originally Posted by deepimpact2

In response to #2: most of the "nasty" things I have said have been in response to "nasty" things that were said to me without reason. However, you all have already made assumptions about me based on what you perceive as my "nasty" posts. Don't sit there and act like you (and others) haven't done that.

Honestly, I don't presume to know you, and I've made no assumptions about what kind of person you are. I disagree with a number of your posts and the assumptions you've made in some of your posts. That's it. As for you as a person...I don't know you and I won't make any assumptions.

It's a message board...it's not that serious.

[Little32]

Originally Posted by KSigkid

I don't know that anyone could seriously argue that Detroit's collapse has only affected Detroit, and I'm not sure anyone in this thread is arguing that. Anyone who has lived in an area with a car dealership knows that the effects have been far-reaching.

Again, I'm not sure anyone here is saying that the citizens of Detroit "deserve" what has happened. I look at the Detroit (and Detroit-area) citizens as, for the most part, victims in this whole thing. This all has come about because of greedy executives, union heads, and political entities, each of whom operated in a way that was doomed to fail at some point. Unfortunately, the people who are bearing the brunt of this are people who had no responsibility for the bad decisions in the first place.

It's a nasty situation.

But this guy did say at least this.

Originally Posted by Elephant Walk

Michigan is in the place they're in because they caused it. Unions ate their companies alive and with that, lost their livelihood. I feel no compassion for Michigan and hope it collapses further.

And I know that it is Elephant Walk, but I am responding to something that has been written.

[southbymidwest]

Originally Posted by Elephant Walk

How so?

In answer to your question, auto makers do not make all of the parts they use to assemble their cars. If they cut production, they cut their orders to suppliers. Their suppliers manufacture these parts all over the country (not just Michigan) and around the world. Smaller orders = smaller production runs = decreased need for workers = reduced hours/reduced workforce. Reduced workforce = less money being spent in the local economy. So that is how a manufacturer of, say, gear shift knobs, in Boise, Idaho, that supplies to the auto industry is hurt by what is going on. Which could impact the local Boise economy.

[RU OX Alum]

Originally Posted by southbymidwest

In answer to your question, auto makers do not make all of the parts they use to assemble their cars. If they cut production, they cut their orders to suppliers. Their suppliers manufacture these parts all over the country (not just Michigan) and around the world. Smaller orders = smaller production runs = decreased need for workers = reduced hours/reduced workforce. Reduced workforce = less money being spent in the local economy. So that is how a manufacturer of, say, gear shift knobs, in Boise, Idaho, that supplies to the auto industry is hurt by what is going on. Which could impact the local Boise economy.

Not only that, but the company who makes the equipment that marks the gear shift pattern on the knobs, and the company that makes the control switches that hold the line up at the right time to be marked, etc. and the companies that sell them will be unable to move product, and start to fail, inevitably, which causes less spending, etc. in those communites, and it's bassicaly a ripple effect. The entire world's economy in linked. If this cycle/ripple effect were to continue unabated, it would eventually effect the entire world, and as it is only one facet of the overall global crisis, certainly the position could be maintained that the demise of an entire city (plus surrounding metro-area) the size of Detroit, MI could unseen effects all over the world.

Plus, dealerships which have been around for years, practically since they've been selling cars, jeeps, etc. have been forced out of business.


ETA: (I actually wrote this as part of my first, longer responce, but I just felt like saying this next line:


I am really uncomfortable with politicians telling auto-makers which dealerships to keep and which to get rid of. Dealerships that have been around for 50+ years are being closed and they were actually surviving and running good businesses. Not to mention, a few even did charaties, etc. And they are forced to closed, because too many of that one type of dealer in the area?? Shouldn't it go to the one who had been there the longest, if anyone has to go, it should be the newer ones, or some how merge them. Either way, mergeing the coporate body with the governmental body and the union group to work toghether for the good of the nation is exacttly the same line Benito Mussolini pitched.

[PM_Mama00]

Originally Posted by KSigkid

I don't know that anyone could seriously argue that Detroit's collapse has only affected Detroit, and I'm not sure anyone in this thread is arguing that. Anyone who has lived in an area with a car dealership knows that the effects have been far-reaching.

Again, I'm not sure anyone here is saying that the citizens of Detroit "deserve" what has happened. I look at the Detroit (and Detroit-area) citizens as, for the most part, victims in this whole thing. This all has come about because of greedy executives, union heads, and political entities, each of whom operated in a way that was doomed to fail at some point. Unfortunately, the people who are bearing the brunt of this are people who had no responsibility for the bad decisions in the first place.

It's a nasty situation.

Thank you. I agree with your post. Except, Kevin did say say Detroit deserved it.

[KSUViolet06]

Originally Posted by goldar

Don't worry about Kevin. He is a little douchbag. Other cities like LA are having the same problem. One of the unclaimed also had relatives in Florida that did not have money for a funeral. The article says NOTHING about unions.

Detroit was a slum long before the recent problems with the Big 3. The real problem in Detroit is the blacks and a 24% graduation rate.

Hi Madmax!

[dreamseeker]

Originally Posted by goldar

The real problem in Detroit is the blacks and a 24% graduation rate.

*mutters to self* its only the internet....

[KSigkid]

Originally Posted by KSUViolet06

Hi Madmax!

The racism and pro-union postings kind of gave it away, didn't they?

I'm wondering why he/she is posting under all these different usernames.

[Kevin]

Originally Posted by goldar

There (sic) pay is only a few bucks an hour more than non union workers at Toyota, Honda, or Nissan. The biggest difference in the Big 3's cost is the underfunded pensions which is management's fault. You should also blame the 20,000 other companies(mostly NON union) that also have underfunded pensions.

That's laughable. It's not just the pay, it's the rigid job descriptions, the overpayment of people like janitors, the refusal to outsource for things like janitorial services, etc. Unions hamstring companies and are the reason decent paying manufacturing jobs in the U.S. are history.

PS. How much do union plumbers make vs non union plumbers? About double?

Actually, the plumbers and pipefitters union actually works with employers to ensure that employers receive a decent profit while providing employment. The formula (in theory) is supposed to actually make it less expensive for a company to use union labor instead of non-union. This is a good example of a union doing what all unions ought to be doing.