Advice to rushers: re: legacies

[kddani]

What about the flip side of things?

You guys say there is damage being done because legacies aren't being given enough special consideration (though I personally think they're given a big dose of extra consideration solely on their birthright, and not by who they actually are and what their personal accomplisments are).

But what about the damage that is done when legacies are given too much consideration? How is greek life supposed to grow and expand to new groups of people? Doesn't having an extra in because of your birthright contribute to the elitist and snobby stereotypes that we are always fighting against?

If legacies were given even more consideration (no one seems to have a real suggestion as to what could be done differently), then greek life would stay largely within the same circles of people, becoming sort of incestuous (for lack of a better term to use).

[Southern_Grace]

We may want our daughters to be happy, but there is nothing wrong with wanting our daughters to be happy in our own sororities

Originally posted by OleMissGlitter
At Ole Miss some older houses will have 50+ legacies going through...sometimes more! I know one house who had 80 legacies going through one year and obviously they could not take all 80 legacies!

I get frustrated when an alumna has a daugther going through and for whatever reason her daugther picks another group to pledge. Sometimes the alumna will get mad at her chapter when really their daugther was never told about her mother's sororities until she was a freshman in college! I think in order for it to be a true mutual selection for a legacy the mother, grandmother, sister, etc must talk to their legacy about their sorority and share memories, experiences, etc...

It is a tricky situation. I hate to hear that a pnm is released from a sorority when she was a legacy, it breaks my heart. However, each woman is different from her mother/grandmother/sister and we all know that houses do change over years. It might be tough to see your daugther/sister go to a different GLO from your own but if she's happy isn't that the most important thing? I know my mother told me when I went through recruitment to just join the group that makes you happy. I know that's what I want for my daugther, for her to be happy....

[dukedg]

Okay, I had an idea and I'm not necessarily advocating it. It's more a thought that should evolve with discussion.

What if a legacy (confirmed to be a true legacy by the college Panhellenic and sorority's exectuive offices) didn't count in a chapter's quota. One of the problems I see a lot with legacies as an adviser is that if the chapter doesn't really LOVE the legacy they are worried she is taking up space in their pledge class/bid list.

I don't mind at all if you think my idea is not feasible/smart, I just thought it would be fun to get a discussion going of possible solutions.

[KatieKD]

Hmm...I'm not supporting that one way or the other, but if they had a separate legacy quota that was pretty low but still separate...well I graduated about 2 years ago so I'm a bit rusty when it comes to recruitment, but I'd certainly be interested in opinions!

[ISUKappa]

Originally posted by dukedg
Okay, I had an idea and I'm not necessarily advocating it. It's more a thought that should evolve with discussion.

What if a legacy (confirmed to be a true legacy by the college Panhellenic and sorority's exectuive offices) didn't count in a chapter's quota. One of the problems I see a lot with legacies as an adviser is that if the chapter doesn't really LOVE the legacy they are worried she is taking up space in their pledge class/bid list.

I don't mind at all if you think my idea is not feasible/smart, I just thought it would be fun to get a discussion going of possible solutions.

I think it's a good idea that would be difficult to implement, but may help alleviate some of the "legacy issues."

[alum]

I think legacies make ideal sisters because they have witnessed the lifetime aspects of fraternal membership. They have seen the huge part it can play in one's life. Like it or not, there are legacies in college selection, job picks etc. It is usually called nepotism.
Having come from a line of women who went to womens' colleges, I luckily went to a coed school where legacies weren't important. In fact, we were shocked to get references ahead of time, 99% from southern girls venturing north. Ditto with my real bio. sister's chapter Now that I have a daughter who will most likely be going to a Southern school, it's a whole different ball game. She is "prepping" through her friends who are a year ahead of her. Like many of the other women on this board with kids of college age, we have witnessed the disappointment of our peers when the legacy daughters are cut so quickly.

[ISUKappa]

Originally posted by alum
I think legacies make ideal sisters because they have witnessed the lifetime aspects of fraternal membership. They have seen the huge part it can play in one's life. Like it or not, there are legacies in college selection, job picks etc. It is usually called nepotism.
Having come from a line of women who went to womens' colleges, I luckily went to a coed school where legacies weren't important. In fact, we were shocked to get references ahead of time, 99% from southern girls venturing north. Ditto with my real bio. sister's chapter Now that I have a daughter who will most likely be going to a Southern school, it's a whole different ball game. She is "prepping" through her friends who are a year ahead of her. Like many of the other women on this board with kids of college age, we have witnessed the disappointment of our peers when the legacy daughters are cut so quickly.

Really, that depends on the area of the country. As has been much stated on GC, the South is vastly different than the Northeast or the Midwest or the West coast. Some legacies have not "witnessed the lifetime aspects of fraternal membership" and some don't even know they're legacies until they go through recruitment. I've seen it happen as an adviser at a mid-size Midwestern school with a somewhat strong Panhellenic.

While I believe that legacies have potential for stronger ties to and possibly may be more active in their chapter than a non-legacy, being a legacy isn't going to guarantee that woman gives two whits about her legacy organization once given a bid.

It's really up to the initiated member to show her legacy the importance of the organization and what it means to her.

[jwright25]

Originally posted by dukedg
What if a legacy (confirmed to be a true legacy by the college Panhellenic and sorority's exectuive offices) didn't count in a chapter's quota. One of the problems I see a lot with legacies as an adviser is that if the chapter doesn't really LOVE the legacy they are worried she is taking up space in their pledge class/bid list.

Interesting thought. Probably wouldn't play out on my campus though. We have four chapters - the two largest hover around the same numbers year in and year out, the next one has about 10 fewer, and the smallest has about 30 fewer. The problem is that the two largest ALWAYS have more legacies participating in formal recruitment. Usually around 10 each for the two largest, 3 for the next, and 1 for the smallest if they are lucky. So that would just perpetuate the big getting bigger - something the smaller two would never accept. It's nice to start the dialogue though and think of different options!!

When I'm working with our collegians at pre-recruitment training and practice, we - as required by our International Organization - review the legacy policy and make sure that all members understand it. I make a special point to emphasize that legacy status is NOT a guarantee of membership and make eye contact with all the legacies in the room. I was not a legacy, but I couldn't imagine being in that discussion and hearing a policy that reads "We must take all legacies no matter if they fit or not, because someone who pledged a different school 30 years ago is more important than the relationships women form in Greek life TODAY."

I know that sometimes legacies feel that the only reason they were offered a bid is because of the family member - sometimes they are told this point blank by a competitive chapter. It is important to me as an advisor to assure ALL the women in my chapter that they were chosen in the same way they chose us, and did NOT get in by default.

Perhaps some young women don't care how they got in, it's the getting in that is most important. To each her own. But speaking from MY experience and the young women who are legacies that I know, they would sooner be non-Greek than to find out they only got in because of Mom.

[ktb323]

As a legacy (3 family members, one of whom was my mother) who was cut, I wholeheartedly agree. Nothing could have prepared my family for the heartbreak and devastation that we ALL went through as a result of my rush experience. I was very involved in both my community and my high school extracurriculars, made good grades, and was friends with everyone in high school. I was expecting to have a good rush, but pledging anything other than my legacy never crossed my mind. I was cut not only by my legacy, but by every other "top house" and was later told by friends that their houses DO automatically cut legacies to other "top houses." Apparently, being a legacy today is actually a disadvantage because of new legacy quotas in place at my school (I'm not sure if this was a policy made by the school or by the sorority) which stated that only 30% of your pledge class could be made up of legacies because they want to "give other girls a chance." (Personally, I feel that those girls whose families have invested time, money, and loyalty in the sorority should be given that chance over girls with no ties at all.) We didn't know this at the time, but basically if you were a legacy from another chapter, you were automatically cut because they didn't even have room for all of the legacies from THEIR chapter. Sororities enforcing policies which ENCOURAGE chapters to cut legacies absolutely makes me sick. In my opinion, there is absolutely no excuse for it. The legacy coming through rush meets all of your girls and can decide for herself whether or not the house is a "good fit" for her. And, believe it or not, not all of them will feel that it is. A girl who truly is not a good fit will realize it and will not want to join. But if she's had multiple family members in the sorority, I firmly believe that she should be given the opportunity to make that decision for herself instead of being cut because someone who spent 2 minutes talking to her feels like "she would be happier somewhere else" and wants to leave a space available for their high school best friend. Despite what people tell you, there's nothing "mutual" about today's recruitment process. You go back to the houses that invite you back... not the ones that you select- period. Nothing good comes out of cutting a legacy. Not only are you deeply hurting this girl and your family, you're screwing your GLO over financially. I know that after my experience, all of my family members (who would have continued to donate HEAVILY and enthusiastically had I continued the tradition) stopped giving money, as did several close family friends and "sisters" who were outraged. Those of you who are in favor of cutting legacies, or don't think it's a big deal, I can assure you that it is, and as others have said, it's something that you really can't fully understand until it happens to you or your daughter. And when that does happen, nothing can prepare you or console you. Frankly, I'm shocked and disappointed at the casual attitudes that so many people seem to have about it and I wish that I could better express the humiliation, pain, resentment, and complete devastation that I felt when it happened. Since GLOs no longer notify the alums when their daughters are being cut, I had to call my mom, who had already made arrangements to come up for bid day, and explain to her that her GLO cut me. It's an experience I wouldn't wish on anyone, and I could go on about this for hours, but I'll stop. I just hope that anyone reading this seriously considers all of the negative ramifications of cutting a legacy... you're not just cutting her. It's a total slap in the face to her mother and I promise you that in a cutting a legacy who really did feel that this GLO was her home, you are cutting off ALL future ties with ALL alums from her family. If you're not a legacy to THAT chapter, I strongly believe that being a legacy will hurt you. My rush experience was something that now, three years later, I continue to think about every day. I honestly don't know if I'll ever fully be able to accept it or "get over it." And I know that my mother still hasn't. After seeing this thread, I felt compelled to join just so that I could share my experience and hopefully prevent it from happening to someone else.

[33girl]

Originally posted by ktb323
Apparently, being a legacy today is actually a disadvantage because of new legacy quotas in place at my school (I'm not sure if this was a policy made by the school or by the sorority) which stated that only 30% of your pledge class could be made up of legacies because they want to "give other girls a chance."

What school was this? I'm guessing it was a sorority policy because I don't think the individual groups would stand for the school/local panhel exercising this kind of decision over member selection.

[kddani]

I think that family members who cut off their donations to a sorority because a chapter cut a girl is a little off. The girl may NOT have been a good fit for the chapter. And to punish the entire national/international organization because of one chapter isn't very logical. A chapter will be shut down for hazing and physically harming it's members, and that won't cause other members to stop donating to the organization.

I could understand more cutting off donations to the local chapter that did the cutting, but not the org as a whole.

Some legacies are NOT all that and a bag of chips. Sorry. A legacy may be nice and sweet and be good on paper, but she just may have not had that "it" factor to stand out during rush. And when they don't bother to have an open mind to any other groups during rush, then that's also their own fault for having tunnelvision.

And it's also wanting it both ways- if you want chapters to give legacies even MORE special treatment than they already do, then there's even MORE incentive for other orgs to cut them early on to give other girls a chance. Not to mention that our orgs would become more and more "inbred" and girls who do not have a legacy connection would have less of a chance.

What if you have MORE legacies going through than a group could take? Then how would you decide what legacies to cut? And then no non-legacies would go in?

And again, no one has given an example of what could be done differently. I think in almost all groups, a legacy is given one courtesy invite, and in many orgs if they are invited to pref they must be on the first bid list (if possible). Why should a legacy get even more of an advantage than that? That's a lot of advantage, right there.

And being in a sorority, while a wonderful experience, is not for everyone, including some legacies. And not being in a sorority is not the end of the world. There's a lot of other things have as a part of your life.

Rejection happens in life. You get rejected from college. You get cut from rush. You get rejected from grad school. You get rejected by someone you have a crush on. You get rejected for a job. It happens, and it's part of life. People with strong character will learn from their mistakes, and try again or move on.

[alum]

Nepotism is a fact of life and should be encouraged in a group that calls its members "sisters." I know plenty of people who drop all donations to universities and private orgs (ie GLOS) if their children don't get selected.

You can't criticize donors for their choice of donation recipients. And yes, they have the right to drop any donations to groups they don't see meeting their ideals.

[AchtungBaby80]

Originally posted by alum
Nepotism is a fact of life and should be encouraged in a group that calls its members "sisters."

I have to respectfully disagree. As kddani pointed out, legacies are already given quite a bit of consideration--would it really be fair to give more?

It's also more than just an issue of "fair" and "unfair." Say a legacy came through rush and did not click with her legacy chapter at all, while there were other girls who fit right in but were not legacies to that group. Should a sorority bid a girl they don't think would make a good member just because her mom/sister/grandmother/whatever was a member? I don't believe so, because it seems as though the chapter wouldn't function well if the sisters really didn't like or get along with each other. If it were a case in which a chapter was deciding between a legacy and a non-legacy and both were equally liked, I'd be all for the legacy gettiing the bid. No one is saying that legacies should not be given any sort of special consideration, but to say that "nepotism should be encouraged" and legacies should be given even more preferential treatment isn't right, either.

[lauralaylin]

Originally posted by ktb323
Since GLOs no longer notify the alums when their daughters are being cut, I had to call my mom, who had already made arrangements to come up for bid day, and explain to her that her GLO cut me. It's an experience I wouldn't wish on anyone, and I could go on about this for hours, but I'll stop.

Is this really true of anyone's group? It sounds to me like the chapter was just off the ball, not that it's no longer something that chapters do. I think that a chapter should definitely call the sister if they drop a legacy. I would never let any of the chapters I deal with not call, it's unfair to both the sister and the legacy.

[33girl]

Originally posted by lauralaylin
Is this really true of anyone's group? It sounds to me like the chapter was just off the ball, not that it's no longer something that chapters do. I think that a chapter should definitely call the sister if they drop a legacy. I would never let any of the chapters I deal with not call, it's unfair to both the sister and the legacy.

This is from Tri Delta's website:

In an effort to protect the privacy and feelings of a Tri Delta legacy, the Fraternity asks that no phone inquiries questioning the status of a legacy during recruitment be made to chapter members, advisors or alumnae. Likewise, the families should not expect to receive such calls. This policy leaves the legacy the right to say and do whatever she chooses about the invitations she does or does not receive.

I'm not sure if that includes bid day or if it's just the rest of rush.