Teen sues over Confederate flag prom dress

[RUgreek]

Originally posted by Coramoor
Do we have any history majors here...?

What's up!

Heh, well I really don't have anything to add to this discussion though, sounds like it's more about the 1st Amendment than the history of the confederacy and it's role in American fashion. My personal opinion, if I may, is that if the school had good faith reasons to object to this symbolic speech, then it was proper. It's not always about violating a person's 1st amendment rights, but also protecting the same rights of the other students affected negatively here.

One last thought here - how many people get their outfits pre-approved before the prom? Sounds like there was more going on before the prom if they had police on standby when she showed up...

RUgreek

[abaici]

Originally posted by hoosier
I would never hire a lawyer named Earl-Ray

or Jim-Bob

or Bubba

LOL!!! Ok, I caught Earl-Ray too!!


First of all, students do not enjoy full constitutional rights. Also, people can be proud of "white southern culture" and claim that the Confederate flag is not racist. The entire society was dependant on the free labor of my ancestors. You may not consider that racist or offensive, but I do. You have the right to be proud of your culture, just as I have the right to celebrate the end of its golden era.

[preciousjeni]

Originally posted by abaici
Also, people can be proud of "white southern culture" and claim that the Confederate flag is not racist. The entire society was dependant on the free labor of my ancestors. You may not consider that racist or offensive, but I do. You have the right to be proud of your culture, just as I have the right to celebrate the end of its golden era.

This is the best way I've seen it put, perhaps ever.

[IowaStatePhiPsi]

Anywho-

Tinker vs. Des Moines applied to this situation: the school was in the wrong. I dont see this disrupting the classroom since it was an extracurricular activity. Students' Freedom of Speech & Expression has been protected by the courts for years. She should have been allowed to wear her dress.

http://www.aclj.org/News/Read.aspx?ID=849

The students in Tinker did not disrupt the school day with their protest activity. They merely wore black armbands over their shirt-sleeves to show their disagreement with a policy of the United States government. They did not interrupt classes or walk out of them; they did not conduct a sit-in in the school's administrative offices. They did not block the hallways, allowing only those who expressed agreement with them to pass. Despite the peaceful, nonviolent nature of the activity, the school officials panicked and suspended students from school as though they had engaged in the sort of disruptive behavior mentioned above.

The student did not disrupt the school day with her dress. She merely wore a tacky dress to show her sentiments on the South. She did not interrupt classes or walk out of them; she did not conduct a sit-in in the school's administrative offices. She did not block the hallways, allowing only those who expressed agreement with them to pass. Despite the peaceful, nonviolent nature of the student's dress, the school officials panicked and barred the student from prom as though she had engaged in the sort of disruptive behavior mentioned above.

[KSigkid]

Originally posted by Coramoor
Do we have any history majors here...?

There were a lot of issues involved in the Civil War/Confederates. Hell, it goes all the way back to before the Constitution was written. The main reason for that the South left was because they were very anti-federalist. They wanted greater state powers, while the northerners wanted a stronger centeral gov't. Hell, 'a' civil war was averted many times before 1860. There was a lot of tension there for over 40 yrs. Slavery was involved in it-but don't think that those in the north really cared about slaves. The immigrants that passed through New York Cities harbor were treated just as bad.

That is vast simplifying the entire issue-but the key issue was their views on gov't. That is what sparked the Civil War. The Confederate Flag represents southern culture and history, not slavery or racisim.

History major here...not an expert by any means, but I find this whole discussion interesting...

Slavery was a cause, if only because it was part of the larger "National v State rights" debate. The slew of compromises, people going back on compromises and weak leadership in the presidency for a number of years all contributed to the onset of war.

I personally have never seen the point of wearing flags as clothes (Flag shirts, flag bathing suits, etc.).

Originally posted by IowaStatePhiPsi
Dear Miss Censorship Bitch:

Does this mean I can't wear a gay pride shirt to school because it might upset some conservative christian fuckmunch?

Wow...I didn't read that at all in her comments. A bit defensive, aren't we?

[abaici]

Originally posted by IowaStatePhiPsi
Anywho-

Tinker vs. Des Moines applied to this situation: the school was in the wrong. I dont see this disrupting the classroom since it was an extracurricular activity. Students' Freedom of Speech & Expression has been protected by the courts for years. She should have been allowed to wear her dress.

In Tinker v. Des Moines, don't they also bring up the fact that student's do not enjoy the same Constitutional protections of adults (if not, it's the case involving the school speech). I don't know. I think that someone wearing a confederate flag dress is inciteful and may disrupt the school activity. The fact that this was an issue PRIOR to the prom leds one to believe that.

[AlphaSigOU]

Originally posted by Phasad1913
racism is racism. the confederate flag, the confederacy and everything pertaining to had to do with race then and it has to do with it now.

I beg to differ with that statement... Southern bigots and racists hijacked an historical flag and symbol to further their own perverted aims, much like the Nazis hijacked the swastika (an ancient symbol of good luck) and several Nordic rune symbols for their movement. As a result, the Stars and Bars, much like the swastika, are now inextricably linked to hatred and racism.

Did we ever tell the Japanese to get rid of their battle flag after we beat 'em in WW II? Nope - that same Rising Sun banner with rays extending from the 'meatball' is still used today - though rarely - as the military ensign of Japan.

[HotDamnImAPhiMu]

The swastika was originally a Christian symbol, as well.

"Stars and Bars" is technically an incorrect name for the Confederate flag (though that's how I've always heard it referred to.) It's called the Confederate Battle Flag (or "Naval Jack") because it was used during war, but never served as the national flag of the confederacy. Additionally, the flag we're discussing was not a symbol of slavery during the Civil War -- it was used almost without exception on ships and on the battle field as a rallying point and a symbol of states' rights.

The blue cross on the flag is called a St. Andrew's Cross, which is both a Christian and celtic symbol.

The Naval Jack gained most of its stigma from the Ku Klux Klan's use of it and the burning cross, post-Civil War.

[CutiePie2000]

Originally posted by HotDamnImAPhiMu
The swastika was originally a Christian symbol, as well.

That is incorrect.

The swastika is a religious symbol which is revered by those of the Hindu faith.
http://www.hindubooks.org/sudheer_bi...ory/omkar.html

[PM_Mama00]

Originally posted by CutiePie2000
That is incorrect.

The swastika is a religious symbol which is revered by those of the Hindu faith.
http://www.hindubooks.org/sudheer_bi...ory/omkar.html

I remember reading that it was also a Native American symbol (am I correct? I know there was a thread about it and it wasn't Hindu).

It was an article about a courthouse that had swastikas in the tiles but it was from some culture. Sorry I forgot.

[Rudey]

1) Why do people talk about the history of a symbol to which they have absolutely no link to? It's like when white people are upset if black people use the "n" word. You're not black, don't worry about why THEY do it. You're not native American and if you are 1/1000 native American, when was the last time you saw one of your relatives use the swastika? Let the native americans express their concern over the usage of the swastika and let the Jews say if they're upset if they used it. Otherwise, drop it.

2) Just because someone used it first does not make it theirs. The cross is a Christian symbol. I don't go around talking about how it was first used in carpentry or some shit like that just. The word awful has evolved to mean something quite different from its original meaning.

I don't know why the stars and bars and its later forms of the confederate flag bring about emotions for many people in the South. I would think there are other symbols that can rally pride that aren't used by 500 extremist groups as well.

This story was no big deal. She fucked up and they didn't let her wear a dress. The law will solve the issue. I'm so glad you are all such involved citizens that this issue worries you so much though.

-Rudey

[sugar and spice]

Originally posted by Rudey
Since I don't know I thought I would ask:

What is so endearing about this flag that even after its modern association with racism, that people want to remember the other things it is associated with?

I don't know enough so I thought maybe someone would know.

-Rudey

I think most of the time it's just because they want to be asses.

I could be wrong.

Anyway, I'm kind of torn on this issue. As much as I think the idea of a Confederate flag dress is TACKY, I don't think schools should have the right to enforce excessive controls on clothing. However, that raises a couple more issues here: Does a school's dress code carry over to extracurricular-type events, like the Prom? (Should Prom dress codes be more or less strict than normal school day dress codes?) And is the Confederate flag dress overtly racist enough that it shouldn't be allowed? And I'm not really sure what I believe on either of those counts.

But what it comes down to, to me, is that they set up a dress code for the events that she knew she would be breaking. The school has a right to set up a dress code. If she knew her dress wasn't going to be accepted, and tried to go anyway -- she has no right to sue.

Originally posted by Coramoor
The Confederate Flag represents southern culture and history, not slavery or racisim.

Herein lies the problem. That may be what it represents to YOU. But it is not what it represents to the majority of the country. So when you or anyone else expresses pride in the Confederate flag, you have to understand that there are many people who read that as expressing pride in racism. The flag does not simply symbolize what YOU think it symbolizes.

And while slavery was not the only cause of the Civil War, it WAS a cause. Let's not pretend that the Gone with the Wind depiction of the antebellum (or post-bellum, for that matter) South was legitimate for one second, okay?

[AKA_Monet]

First off--

Y'all know that there is a whole lot more to this story that what y'all are reading... CNN or not... There are probably past racial incidences at this high school from the 0.1% half black folks that attend there and she is one of the main culprits perpetuating that chit... And the irony is that her date was probably African American...

Second off--

Look, most African Americans that are lighter hued but still choose to identify themselves as Black (not just on paper), and have family down south (like mine in Georgia and Florida), probably have some caucasian ancestors that were officers of the confederacy... So let's not get too picky out who's side we're on... Read about Strom Thurmond's out of wedlock daughter he had from his Black maid (whom I bet he raped, then said he loved her)...

Lastly,

Most of you need to know your history, because y'all will be doomed to repeat it...

The US Civil War was not about Slavery. The emancipation occured to keep the Union together by the Republican, Abraham Lincoln who was part of the abolishonist movement, but not a full supporter of it. Most the south at that time were Democrats--now called Dixiecrats. The Civil War was about $$$$ plan and simple. The south had free labor and the north did not have all that agriculture, but wanted industrialization.

The south cannot be made antibellum in the hearts and minds of most African Americans. It hurts our ancestry too much. Especially since my own parents suffered under Jim Crow. And many Caucasian folks who are of similar age of my parents fought for civil rights in the south side by side and can tell their horror stories too--a lot of them are reclused into odd jobs as professors and psychologists... I meet them everywhere I live--especially in the South... Look at the Southern Poverty Law Center...

[Phasad1913]

First of all, students do not enjoy full constitutional rights. Also, people can be proud of "white southern culture" and claim that the Confederate flag is not racist. The entire society was dependant on the free labor of my ancestors. You may not consider that racist or offensive, but I do. You have the right to be proud of your culture, just as I have the right to celebrate the end of its golden era.

^5

[Coramoor]

Herein lies the problem. That may be what it represents to YOU. But it is not what it represents to the majority of the country. So when you or anyone else expresses pride in the Confederate flag, you have to understand that there are many people who read that as expressing pride in racism. The flag does not simply symbolize what YOU think it symbolizes.

So the majority is always right?

Also, I don't really care much about the Confederate Flag. I just think that people should know the entire issue rather than have a narrow view and make incorrect statements.