Odd sex experience, what do you think?

[UKDaisy]

Originally posted by Rudey
What if the dude was just as drunk or messed up?!?

Society tends to throw everything and anything on the guy.

-Rudey

I think Rudey brings up a good point. We all jumped the gun immediately to blame the guy. Our first thoughts were "OMG THE JERK".

But I agree with kddani - being drunk *and both individuals were* does not excuse a crime. If we all agree that some sort of crime was committed.

Its like if you're drunk and you shoot somebody. Guess what....when you get sober the next day - you still shot somebody! I'm not saying we should throw the book at this guy and he should get 20 years either.

The only reason I mentioned someone beating him up is b/c :

a.) I would like to see two men beat the living crap out of each other. I find it entertaining - especially when one of the guys deserves it.

b.) I would like to hear James story of beating the guy up *it just would have been beautifully written*

c.) If it were me in the story- my guy friends would have already taken care of this. The moment I even mentioned something like that happening I would have a car full of boys on the way to take care of this guy. Whether I would want them too or not.

[KSig RC]

Originally posted by kddani
Being drunk isn't a defense to a crime though. It may go towards showing the intent, but it's not a defense.

Which in this sort of situation makes the water a little murky

Likewise, the legal standard for mental capability to 'consent' (used in the legal sense here) does not change based on gender. That would be horrifically unconstitutional (see: Italy's "no rape in jeans" law for an example).

Unfortunately, the 'spirit' of the law argument tends to carry the day here - practice is slightly different than principle.

[Senusret I]

Originally posted by alphagam-alum
I have mixed views on this--- while in college I would have said "rape" in a heartbeat.
Now, I am not sure what I would technically call it--- I will call it wrong.
You don't have sex with someone who is passed out, if that was the case---
but... i will play devils advocate here.... ( and i am sure you all will flame away)---Did James ever say that she didn't give consent? She could have been very much willing to have sex, even a drunken state of consent could have been given. We don't know. How many times have you all been drunk, made decisions, done something, whatever it was-- been told about it the next morning, don't remember it--the moment could be gone from your mind, all but a few seconds of the events-- but you weren't passed out, but yet you don't remember. You may not have made the best decision on your life, but you did make the choice to do the action. This very well could been the case.
Should the guy get 5-10 yrs in prison--NO.
Should the girl learn to take better control of her health and personal safety-- YES
Should the guy learn to make wiser choices-- YES
Should her friend get her ass kicked for leaving her "alone" in an altered state--YES.

THANK YOU.

[James]

Update:

She called her friend, the one that left her there and told her the story.

Her friend was really pissed about it and called her boyfriend and read him the riot act. The BF is an officer in that fraternity.

The BF said that the brother she had been with was bragging and telling everyone what a freak she was in bed. In other words, a very different story than her experience.

So as of now, the BF said that he was going to try and get a written apology from the guy to be read in front of chapter as well as delivered to my friend.

We shall see if the guy actually does that. I would be surprised.

In defense of her friend, the girl that left her, she is a real "frat rat." I don't know if you know the type, but its the kind of girl that hangs out with one specific fraternity chapter, often dating one of its members, and thinks the rest must be saints because they tolerate and are nice to her.

So she figured that my friend must be safe with these guys because they were all from that fraternity chapter.

Anyway, thats where we are ao far. What do you think?

[ISUKappa]

Originally posted by James
Update:
...The BF said that the brother she had been with was bragging and telling everyone what a freak she was in bed. In other words, a very different story than her experience. ...

Granted we're all hearing this second-hand so we have no idea what has actually been said by the guy but if this is the attitude he has, then I definitely believe that a written apology is in order. And I still stand by my belief that he needs to see a counselor (even if it's just one session) and present an educational to his entire chapter about Rape. If he can change even just a few guys' attitudes about it, then it would help. It's going to be difficult because his fraternity brothers are more likely going to believe him over a "drunk chick" that many of them may not know personally. (I know that's not always the case, but I'm just being realistic.)

I hope your friend is doing okay as she continues to process what happened.

[alphaiota]

well i was on the fence about whether or not he should be charged with rape. now i'm definately in support of him going to prison. a$$hole!

shelley j
sigma k

[James]

Rage is hardly a reason to put someone away lol.

Originally posted by alphaiota
well i was on the fence about whether or not he should be charged with rape. now i'm definately in support of him going to prison. a$$hole!

shelley j
sigma k

[alphaiota]

james,
you know where i'm coming from on this. we've discussed it.

shelley j
sigma k

[wrigley]

Originally posted by James
[B]Update:

The BF said that the brother she had been with was bragging and telling everyone what a freak she was in bed. In other words, a very different story than her experience.

So as of now, the BF said that he was going to try and get a written apology from the guy to be read in front of chapter as well as delivered to my friend.

In defense of her friend, the girl that left her, she is a real "frat rat." I don't know if you know the type, but its the kind of girl that hangs out with one specific fraternity chapter, often dating one of its members, and thinks the rest must be saints because they tolerate and are nice to her.

So she figured that my friend must be safe with these guys because they were all from that fraternity chapter.
[B]

I think the written apology is pointless. Most likely it won't be sincere. He obviously thinks he was studdly duddly. It won't change what happened to her or that night. I like ISUKappa's idea of some type of programming about aquaintance rape and alcohol use, counseling, and let him do community service at a rape crisis center,or shelter for abused women. Jail time hasn't worked for those there already I doubt it would do a thing for him.

[alphaiota]

maybe yall are right, but it doesn't seem like much will make this guy be remorseful about what he did. how bout he gets raped, and i don't mean by a woman. maybe that will make him sorry for doing that to her.

shelley j
sigma k

[Peaches-n-Cream]

James, I think that the guy is a jerk and that you should kick his ass.

[KSig RC]

Originally posted by alphaiota
maybe yall are right, but it doesn't seem like much will make this guy be remorseful about what he did. how bout he gets raped, and i don't mean by a woman. maybe that will make him sorry for doing that to her.

shelley j
sigma k

Yep, maybe - then again, we don't really need to "follow the legal system" or "promote rehabilitation rather than humiliation" do we?

And no one's even addressed the point that Rudey raised . . .

[ISUKappa]

Originally posted by KSig RC
And no one's even addressed the point that Rudey raised . . .

Rob, are you referring to this?

What if the dude was just as drunk or messed up?!?

If what James posted is true about the guy going around telling how "freaky" this girl was in bed, then, in my opinion, he is admitting he was coherent as to what was going on and couldn't have been as drunk or messed up. If he is completely lying about the entire incident (meaning he was as drunk or messed up) then not only is he disrespecting this girl, he's also doing more harm to himself by saying what he's saying. I'll admit, I'll never fully understand how guys work, but why not just say "I was completely trashed and I don't really know what happened" and leave it at that.

Sincere or not, I think a letter of apology is helpful -- it makes the guy put into concrete words what happened and it can help alleviate the guilt felt by the girl (if she feels any). I know I would have appreciated a written letter of apology.

Okay, so question for the men: If an incident like this occurred in your chapter house and you know what really happened (let's say the guy had been drinking but wasn't wasted, he knew what he was doing, the girl was incoherent and could not give consent at all), how would you deal with it? What would you like to see be done about it? What would help to lessen the chances of something like this happening again?

[Rudey]

It's not up to you to restrict his freedom of speech.

You haven't addressed the fact that he may have been in the same physical state as her and both took on a risk to make decisions they wouldn't normally take when they put that liquor to their lips.

-Rudey

Originally posted by ISUKappa
Rob, are you referring to this?


If what James posted is true about the guy going around telling how "freaky" this girl was in bed, then, in my opinion, he is admitting he was coherent as to what was going on and couldn't have been as drunk or messed up. If he is completely lying about the entire incident (meaning he was as drunk or messed up) then not only is he disrespecting this girl, he's also doing more harm to himself by saying what he's saying. I'll admit, I'll never fully understand how guys work, but why not just say "I was completely trashed and I don't really know what happened" and leave it at that.

Sincere or not, I think a letter of apology is helpful -- it makes the guy put into concrete words what happened and it can help alleviate the guilt felt by the girl (if she feels any). I know I would have appreciated a written letter of apology.

Okay, so question for the men: If an incident like this occurred in your chapter house and you know what really happened (let's say the guy had been drinking but wasn't wasted, he knew what he was doing, the girl was incoherent and could not give consent at all), how would you deal with it? What would you like to see be done about it? What would help to lessen the chances of something like this happening again?

[KSig RC]

Originally posted by ISUKappa


If what James posted is true about the guy going around telling how "freaky" this girl was in bed, then, in my opinion, he is admitting he was coherent as to what was going on and couldn't have been as drunk or messed up. If he is completely lying about the entire incident (meaning he was as drunk or messed up) then not only is he disrespecting this girl, he's also doing more harm to himself by saying what he's saying. I'll admit, I'll never fully understand how guys work, but why not just say "I was completely trashed and I don't really know what happened" and leave it at that.

While I def agree with most of this point, and there's really little to no doubt the kid is a piece of crap (assuming the story is correct as told..), these arguments have little to do with the legal basis for rape.

I was playing devil's advocate here - garbage like "HE SHOULD BE RAPED TOO!" ignore a fundamental flaw in logic: if he was intoxicated as well, then by legal standard he was most likely 'raped' as well. Now, we can argue until we're blue in the face that the ramifications of this are different for males vs. females, but it is pretty weak to drop the things that alphaiota did.

It's a slippery slope, and that was my point - the kid's (douche-like) actions nonwithstanding.

Originally posted by ISUKappa
Sincere or not, I think a letter of apology is helpful -- it makes the guy put into concrete words what happened and it can help alleviate the guilt felt by the girl (if she feels any). I know I would have appreciated a written letter of apology.

I agree, and I disagree. A letter of apology seems like appeasement, while I generally prefer active methods of attempting to 'solve' the issue. I guess I would prefer some action to be taken that requires the dude to learn/improve, whether that be some sort of ridiculous "sensitivity training" or more likely some sort of 'scared straight' class. Who knows, but I greatly prefer active solutions to writing a letter.

Originally posted by ISUKappa
Okay, so question for the men: If an incident like this occurred in your chapter house and you know what really happened (let's say the guy had been drinking but wasn't wasted, he knew what he was doing, the girl was incoherent and could not give consent at all), how would you deal with it? What would you like to see be done about it? What would help to lessen the chances of something like this happening again?

It's hard to say - usually if it were 'that bad' then someone would pull the guy aside and say something, generally the president or VP of risk management. Essentially, we have both a reputation and legal standing to maintain, and if a guy is putting either at risk, he'd be facing some consequences, whether social, legal, or judicial. Honestly, though, I'd hope that it would never come to that; hopefully preventative measures would lessen that risk. I'd hope.