Men interested in AKA

[Ania]

Just one question- Why sample?

[This message has been edited by Ania (edited March 30, 2001).]

[Wonderful1908]

Clearly I am hoping there would be no problem with this fraternity if they had used different symbols, but they didn't. For me and my love of AKA I realize the meaning this symbols mean to me and my organization.

This fraternity using symbols does not bother me in the least because they will never (or should want to) have the same connection that I do to them. It is a matter of understanding, yes its out of order to take so much from AKA, but what my twenty pearls mean to me no fraternity can duplicate .

[AKA_Monet]

Another fact is would we be upset if another country took the United States flag to represent itself?

And those of you who don't care about the USA, tell that to our servicemen and women that can't tell and not ask...

[DeltaBro1]

Dear ladies, I have read all of your responses and taken your words to heart. I certainly feel your frustration and your anger. I do understand that your issue is not with the sexual orientation of my fraternity or its members (for some of you), but with the perceived similarity between a few of our symbols. I am not trying to make this into such a discussion, since I am very comfortable with who I am and have no need to discuss/debate it. I am a bit perplexed, because in my capacity as Executive Director, I have had the pleasure of speaking to your Supreme Basileus, Norma White, with the office of the Executive Director, Betty James and with various other staff members of the Headquarters, all of whom have always been gracious, kind and cooperative. I have often sought their help many times on procedural and organizational matters, always with positive results. I have helped your national office and the national office of Delta Sigma Theta, Inc., identify the corporate names of the men who imitate each respective organization. At no time, has the national office of Alpha Kappa Alpha expressed any displeasure with Delta Phi Upsilon or its symbols. I believe that is because as older, wiser women, they realize that being in an organization is not all about the external manifestations. It is not about wearing para, it's not about displaying symbols. The ivy and the pearl have a specific and unique meaning to AKA which is absolutely different from the meaning to Delta Phi Upsilon. If you and I were to look at these symbols, they would invoke totally different emotions for each of us. Ladies, it is not about the ivy, it is about what the ivy means... to you as an AKA... to me as a Delta. There are certain aspects like the founding date that did originate with a desire to imitate AKA. When we were founded, the leadership at the time, in an effort to mimic AKA, did cause certain events to occur on certain dates. In later years, certain members realized that the organization had the potential to positively affect the lives of gay men of color, and a movement began to implement a change. That change included a new name, shield, motto, etc., etc. etc. As we grew, we did still look to AKA as a source of information and inspiration. After 16 years of existence, we are finally at the point where every procedural endeavor is original. I have sat down and compared our shield to yours. Yes, they do share certain elements, but overall, the design is sufficiently different to pass copyright. We have not infringed on your trademark, as AKA_Monet states. And as far as anyone confusing the two symbols, well, if someone can't look at the two and see different letters, one with five stars, one without, one with a book/torch, one without, different greek phrases, then that person is either blind or stupid. Further, our organizations serve two completely different communities. Delta Phi Upsilon works solely in the GAY community and has no interest in serving the more mainstream black community, hence the "service to OUR kind" motto. To address AKA2D '91 who said "whatever happened to the RAINBOW?" the rainbow flag/symbol is used predominantly by caucasian organizations. Now, while certain traditions cherished by Delta cannot and will not change, such as the founding date, the ivy, the pearl, the motto and the shield, I assure you that there WILL be a revision to our stated purpose. I must tell you that I personally have never felt comfortable with it and will use this opportunity to mandate a change. I realize that this is a small compensation you most of you, but surely you understand the impossibility of changing our traditions simply because another organization has a problem with them. Such a change would affect the hundreds of men who have pledged lifetime loyalty to this fraternity and would only serve to invalidate that pledge.

Ladies, I thank you for your time and I hope that this animosity between us can be quickly resolved.

Trevor Charles
Executive Director
Delta Phi Upsilon Fraternity, Inc.

[AKA2D '91]

triple

LOL@myself!

Have a good weekend, ya'll...I will!

[lastpoetnsite]

much respect...

i am just curious about something.

on page two in the post made by AKA_Monet
you asked the following questions of Mr. Trevor Charles, Executive Director of Delta Phi Upsilon, Inc.

How is an ivy symbolic with the Black gay/lesbian community?

How is an sheild with a dove, globe, clasped hands, book, torch symbolic of the Black gay/lesbian community?

How is a motto, "Service to OUR Kind", reflective about your community?

i may be wrong but in asking him to justify or devulge the meanings of the symbols, motto, and sheild that he holds dearly and is sacred to his fraternity. would this be much like myself inquiring about your esteemed sororities "business" as well? wouldn't that be very disrespectful on my part or in fact anyone's part?

i understand your concern. and i think that from reading Mr. Charles' very respectful, intelligent, and highly articulate posts that he had concerns as well...thus he approached your national headquarters on the same issues that have now been debated on this forum.

it is unfortunate but the fact remains that the welcoming of gay/lesbian/bisexual people into the divine nine has not been one of brother/sisterhood but one of disdain and bitterness. in many posts located all over this forum and included in this thread there are thinly veiled threats, derogatory names being called, and many homophobic & paranoid complaints about gays/lesbians/bisexuals alike. therefore ladies and gentlemen have taken it upon themselves to serve their communities. it is only natural. but that does not mean that there can not be some sort of camraderie amongst BGLOS, G/L/BiBGLOs, and GLOS and others.

i understand, although not a member of a greek organization, that the meanings of each symbol, motto, sheild, call, acronym, hand symbol etc. etc. mean the world to each of you...and it should. but you must also understand that their "business" means the world to them too...and just like yours...it is private and personal.

as none of you would appreciate an "ousider" being inquisitive to the point of demanding that you justify the "meanings" of your sacred items so too should you also respect that boundary for others. and as many of you would say and have said numerous times on various forums, "Membership has its Privileges"

I think it would also be interesting to note that there are 9 organizations under the NPHC umbrella. Each of these organizations are different, yet bound to serving the black community. But if there was only one organization that was handling the needs of the entire black community then the others would not have been founded. But this does not stop each organization from trying to be united with the other members of the Divine Nine to heal the ills of the entire black community. each organization thus lends a hand where they can be most useful. and Delta Phi Upsilon Fraternity, Inc. and other gay/lesbian/bi BGLO's are doing the same thing....uplifting a part of the black community that other organizations have not served in the past.

i am sure that i will get blasted by this...i will get the replies that "i don't know what i'm talking about"..."shut up you're not greek"..."you must be gay thats why you're defending him"...and on and on.

but i hope that while you are making these remarks filled with anger, bias, and phobia that you think about how different his posts were...versus how many of your posts were. it would be helpful to talk to one another...and not spit so much hate at one another...

just some thoughts

peace



[This message has been edited by lastpoetnsite (edited March 30, 2001).]

[AKA_Monet]

Originally posted by DeltaBro1:
Yes, they do share certain elements, but overall, the design is sufficiently different to pass copyright. We have not infringed on your trademark, as AKA_Monet states.

Mr. Charles,

First off, what I was saying was Alpha Kappa Alpha Sorority, Inc. has two trademarked symbols. How can I trust you that you won't take those symbols, too since you have taken the other ones--no matter how you doctor it up for change?

If you have spoken to my Soror Norma S. White, and my Executive Director, Soror Betty James and felt they have been gracious toward your organization and knowing the history of the past imitations, I cannot speak for them. But my Soror Norma White speaks for my Sorority--it says so in my constitution and bylaws. And I as of yet have ever heard about your situation in any one of my clusters, regionals or international meetings. You should appeal to my Soror Norma S. White to make a presentation to my Sorors at my next International Meeting which will be in 2002. Then as a body, we will let the sorors decide the actions we should take regarding this issue.

My concern is that some caucasians confuse the diverse nature of our African American organizations as a whole. The government, who I think is seriously bigoted against gays and lesbians--even in Congress--has specific mandates for 501c3 foundations to remain a not-for-profit entity. It is the government and for that matter the media that I have concerns. They are going after Jesse Jackson's charity organizations very harshly based on his allocation of contributed funds. African American organizations have severe limitations on financial resource availibility and capital, if these bigoted forces can take down Jesse's Rainbow Coalition, they can damn sure take Alpha Kappa Alpha Sorority, Inc. down with one stroke... And you know they cannot tell the difference between us negroes... (I'm using that language for effect...)

Now, while certain traditions cherished by Delta cannot and will not change, such as the founding date, the ivy, the pearl, the motto and the shield, I assure you that there WILL be a revision to our stated purpose. I must tell you that I personally have never felt comfortable with it and will use this opportunity to mandate a change. I realize that this is a small compensation you most of you, but surely you understand the impossibility of changing our traditions simply because another organization has a problem with them. Such a change would affect the hundreds of men who have pledged lifetime loyalty to this fraternity and would only serve to invalidate that pledge.

But you said your foundations were rooted in mimicry? Am I incorrect? You still are using us as a resource, to what end? Some of my sorors could see this as stealing. Some of my sorors don't care. Either way, what did your members pledge a lifetime for? Moreover, your traditions do look like they have been based on some of ours and as for me, I can admit that hurts. Because, I felt I pledge my heart out for Alpha Kappa Alpha Sorority, Inc. I've been a financially active and participating soror for over 10 years and I feel that what was once so hard for me to reach which I now possess is being invalidated by an organization to which I have some reservations. I take it as an invalidation of my commitment to my Sorority. I understand that some of my sorors do not feel the way I do. But, it's a free country.

No, it is not right for us to demand you all to change. At the same time it would be incorrect of you to assume we have no reservations about both our organizations similarities... Some folk are incapable of being open enough to understand why.

However, I consider myself as a compassionate conservative. Yes, I said it. I can admit it. I realize your pains. There are teenage gay men and women who are commiting suicide because of lack of resources availible to them to strengthen their pursuit of their sexuality. And there are heterosexual teenagers that commit suicide too. I feel you are asking us to put the cart before the horse. How can I say you have a speck in your eye when I got a board in mine? So, I feel the need to help out ALL children regardless of their sexual orientation if they have a problem with their self-esteem.

All of us cannot have it all. Be it Princesses, Queens or Goddesses... However, there is one common thread among us and that is humanity... I don't know what else I can say but I am sorry this is the way I truly feel.

[AKA_Monet]

Originally posted by lastpoetnsite:
much respect...

i am just curious about something.

on page two in the post made by AKA_Monet
you asked the following questions of Mr. Trevor Charles, Executive Director of Delta Phi Upsilon, Inc.

i may be wrong but in asking him to justify or devulge the meanings of the symbols, motto, and sheild that he holds dearly and is sacred to his fraternity. would this be much like myself inquiring about your esteemed sororities "business" as well? wouldn't that be very disrespectful on my part or in fact anyone's part?

[This message has been edited by lastpoetnsite (edited March 30, 2001).]

My intent was not for Mr. Charles to divulge his ritualistic information to me or any of my sorors. It was to make the point that my symbols mean something I hold near and dear to my heart based on work done by African American women over 90 years ago. What I wanted to point out, but I may have ineffectively explained myself, it how can these similar symbols have the impact you are trying to make the community that you serve... I do not need to know that answer, I was raising the question for folks to think about. Besides, just my me stating the relevance of my symbols for my Sorority and what my Founders implemented, give some interested women a big hint on what Alpha Kappa Alpha Sorority, Inc. is really about when you think about it... In fact, some of my sorors my flame me for divulging too much of my Sorority's information...

[Diamond007]

This is a S-E-R-I-O-U-S MATTER!!!!!!! I am outraged!!!!!!! I have never heard of any of this in my LIFE!!!!!!!!

[lastpoetnsite]

much respect...

i understand. but even you questioning him isn't that considered disrespectful? yes, i understand that the symbols of your esteemed organization have great meaning. but...if i or anyone had the nerve or dare i say audacity to question you...whether it be rhetorical or not...about the meanings of the symbols you cherish...would that not be an act of disrespect?

i think it would be. not only would AKA's be pounding down my or anyone elses door but the whole of the Divine Nine would be out to get myself or someone else like this was a Salem Witch Hunt.

although i am happy that in your post to Mr. Charles you implored him to ask your National Executive Board to bring these issues up at your next meeting...i am dismayed by the fact that you are a compassionate conservative.

Dubya would be very happy to hear that. unfortunately it is the "compassionate conservatives" who are doing the destroying of grassroots black organizations. but that is a conversation for another thread.

thank you for your ear

peace

[DeltaBro1]

Thank you, lastpoetnsite for your understanding.

Ladies, as eloquent and as articulate as some of you have called me, I am out of words. If any of you visit our website again at delta-phi-upsilon.org, you will find certain changes have been implemented. Like I promised, the purpose has been revised. The public motto has also been revised to "Reaching the World Through Service To Our Kind," which in all honesty always was the motto, we've just always used the shorter phrase, so that's not too drastic a change for us internally. I hope this satisfies some of you, but I realize that it won't satisfy all of you. That's ok. Delta Phi Upsilon does not wish to have Alpha Kappa Alpha as an enemy, nationally or locally. Personally and organizationally, we hold Alpha Kappa Alpha and all the other members of the NPHC in the highest regard. This will be my final post to this forum as we will not continue to justify or defend our traditions to anyone. They hold a totally different meaning to us and we love them just as you do. I will take the advice of one of the posters and contact the AKA headquarters tomorrow regarding this. Thank you, as always for listening. This has been a most enlightening and informative discussion.

Yours in Greekdom,
Trevor Charles
Executive Director
Delta Phi Upsilon Fraternity

[Discogoddess]

Originally posted by Wonderful1908:
I am not feeling the use of many of our sorority symbols, dates and etc. There are a million things one can choose to be affiliated with their group.

However I think if they feel the need to form a group more power to them! I am really opened minded when it comes to people expressing themselves in the way THEY see fit. Just because we are members of mainstream BGLO's (or striving to be) doesn't give us the right to pass judgement on this fraternity. I imagine in 1906 and 1908 many a mainstream sorority and fraternity frowned upon the founding of Alpha Kappa Alpha and Alpha Phi Alpha. Sometimes I think we should strive to be more understanding..... IMHO.

My thoughts exactly, soror.

[Wonderful1908]

Okay enough aleady with this thread

People are entitled to their opinions and as far I am concerned as a member of Alpha Kappa Alpha, as well as the opposite end of conservative I wish Delta Phi Upsilon GOOD LUCK in their future . I am convinced that the fraternity realizes the nature of many of my sorors discomfort in using "our" symbols. The bigger picture here is about humanity though, and I gurantee if sexual oreintation were not a factor here, there wouldn't be 50+ responses to this topic. I am so sick of peoples personal decisions becoming the REAL issue and respondents playing the role as though "its not that its homosexuality its..." please give me a break .

[This message has been edited by Wonderful1908 (edited March 31, 2001).]

[DeltaBro1]

Originally posted by Discogoddess:
My thoughts exactly, soror.

It seems to me that the ladies of AKA have based their judgment of my fraternity on hearsay and not fact. Delta Phi Upsilon does not have, does not use and has never even seen the rituals of AKA. Please also see the following which is a reprint of a message I posted to all AKA members on this board which was subsequently deleted by the moderators. Thank you.

This message is for the ladies of Alpha Kappa Alpha Sorority, Inc., and any other interested parties. My name is Trevor Charles and I am the Executive Director of Delta Phi Upsilon Fraternity, Inc., an organization of gay men of color who are dedicated to the pursuit of community service. For a while now, my office has been besieged by emails from members of Alpha Kappa Alpha, whose sole purpose is to take my organization to task for its very existance. All of these emails allude to the fact that certain traditions of my fraternity happen to be similar to those of AKAs. Let me first state that while I can certainly understand the attachment that you may have to the Ivy leaf, the pearl, etc, I must point out to you that no organization holds exclusive rights to the use of these icons. These are universal symbols used by many other fraternal organizations, Alpha Phi Fraternity, being one. It is understandable that after almost 100 years, you would feel that within the black community, these symbols are exclusively yours. I have to wonder if you would have such a problem, if we were an organization of white men? In any case, our traditions cannot change, any more than yours can. Let me now address the supposed similarity between our public mottoes. Yes, there is a similarity between the two... in words. Alpha Kappa Alpha has pledged "service to all mankind," while Delta Phi Upsilon pledges "service to our kind." To those of us who are truly concerned about service and not just the outside trappings of a fraternity/sorority, it's not so much the words but the meaning behind them and what you do with those words. Because the "traditional" BGLOs have not made room within their brother/sisterhoods for gay and lesbian members of society to function as themselves, the need exists for groups like Delta Phi Upsilon Fraternity, Delta Phi Sigma Sorority, Delta Iota Lambda Sorority, Omicron Epsilon Pi Sorority and Iota Lambda Pi Fraternity, all of whom serve "our kind." So you see, while "Service To All Mankind" may have a distinct meaning to AKA, so to does "Service To Our Kind" to Delta Phi Upsilon. I also wish to assure all of you that Delta Phi Upsilon Fraternity has not, does not and will not publically or privately call ourselves "AKAs". The organization that you are referring to was formerly called KOSIS, Inc.,(now Organized Body of Sorors) to which Delta Phi Upsilon Fraternity, Inc., has NO affiliation whatsoever. In fact, our intake process expressly prohibits the acceptance of any man who holds or even used to hold, membership in KOSIS, Inc. I have personally spoken to AKA headquarters regarding this and have provided them with information needed to seek legal action against this group of renegade men. I too am appalled that they could practice such blatent disrespect for Alpha Kappa Alpha and her traditions, while professing love for her. I certainly hope that this will bring an end to the negative correspondence that we have been receiving. Of course, should any of you have any intelligent questions or comments, please do not hesitate to contact me. Thank you for your time.

Trevor Charles
Executive Director
Delta Phi Upsilon Fraternity, Inc.

[MaMaBuddha]

this is why lastpoetnsite is my best friend...

love you girl!!!



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MaMaBuddha

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