SMU shuts down bake sale w/ race-based prices

[breathesgelatin]

Originally posted by Eclipse
(((Wondering if the cookies were any good)))

mmmmmm.... tastes like feminism!

they were delish!

[White_Chocolate]

Originally posted by OohTeenyWahine
So, as an Asian-American woman, would my cookie have been free?

nah, they'd probably be mean and offer you a free fortune cookie. . .

well, considering i'm black, native american, somewhat hispanic and part jewish and a woman. . .


WHAT IN THE HELL WOULD THE PRICE OF MY COOKIE COST????

[sugar and spice]

Originally posted by bethany1982
Understanding the culture of another and believing that others should receive preferential treatment based on factors other than ability or achievement seem to be two separate issues. Unless you are saying, that because of your “understanding” you have concluded that certain groups need preferential treatment in order to compete.

We had a discussion a few months ago where we addressed that point:

http://forums.greekchat.com/gcforums...n&pagenumber=1

I think the posts you might be more interested in are in the last half.

[bethany1982]

Originally posted by sugar and spice
We had a discussion a few months ago where we addressed that point:

http://forums.greekchat.com/gcforums...n&pagenumber=1

I think the posts you might be more interested in are in the last half.

Thanks for the tip. I was interested in your opinion. Perhaps I'll find it there.

[sugar and spice]

It's somewhere in there.

Essentially, I feel that American culture is set up to provide more educational opportunities to whites than to people of color. Affirmative action, when properly used, is one way of levelling the playing field. So yes, in a way I'm saying that some minorities DO need the extra help that affirmative action provides, though not necessarily through any fault of their own. It's summed up much better by many of the posts in that thread, though, which is why I directed you there.

Part of it is economic, as minorities are more likely to be "low-income" than whites. And since economic factors are influences by educational factors, which are influenced by economics, which is influenced by education . . . it's a self-perpetuating cycle which can be difficult to bust out of. In some cases AA helps to end the cycle.

[bethany1982]

So you believe that people need extra help because of their race in order to compete. That's fine. Our opinions differ.

[sugar and spice]

Originally posted by bethany1982
So you believe that people need extra help because of their race in order to compete. That's fine. Our opinions differ.

So why do you believe that minorities don't "achieve" as much as whites do, academically? If it's not society, then what?

[bethany1982]

Some minorities do achieve as much or more than whites. I don't believe that society in general holds anyone back who is able to compete on their own. Perhaps certain cultures have different expectations of their members than others, both high and low.

[Rudey]

Why do poor Bangladeshi, Indian, Chinese students do so well in NYC?

-Rudey
--Tell me please.

[sugar and spice]

What about the possibility that some people who can't compete on their own fail to do so because of society issues? Otherwise, you're getting very close to saying that certain races are innately not prepared to succeed, or at least less prepared to succeed than others. Which is sticky. And not a point that I want to argue.

I don't think that anyone can argue that different culture have different expectations when it comes to education, and that each culture needs to work on improving those expectations -- but pressure comes from outside the individual cultures too. For example, I see the idea that "The only way blacks will ever get rich or famous is via entertainment or sports" promoted by whites just as often, if not more, than it is by African-Americans themselves.

As for Rudey's question, if those students are not a product of American culture, then the standards American culture sets up don't apply to them.

[Rudey]

Originally posted by sugar and spice
What about the possibility that some people who can't compete on their own fail to do so because of society issues? Otherwise, you're getting very close to saying that certain races are innately not prepared to succeed, or at least less prepared to succeed than others. Which is sticky. And not a point that I want to argue.

I don't think that anyone can argue that different culture have different expectations when it comes to education, and that each culture needs to work on improving those expectations -- but pressure comes from outside the individual cultures too. For example, I see the idea that "The only way blacks will ever get rich or famous is via entertainment or sports" promoted by whites just as often, if not more, than it is by African-Americans themselves.

As for Rudey's question, if those students are not a product of American culture, then the standards American culture sets up don't apply to them.

What does that mean?? You have to be second generation American to have those standards apply to you?

-Rudey
--Interesting.

[sugar and spice]

Originally posted by Rudey
What does that mean?? You have to be second generation American to have those standards apply to you?

-Rudey
--Interesting.

If someone is first-generation American and Chinese, then they're still Chinese-American. By "Chinese" I assumed you meant Chinese students who were raised in China but came to the US for educational purposes only.

As for the question, I assume that this is in part due to, as bethany said, the cultural expectations. Nobody is arguing that those exist.

[Rudey]

Originally posted by sugar and spice
If someone is first-generation American and Chinese, then they're still Chinese-American. By "Chinese" I assumed you meant Chinese students who were raised in China but came to the US for educational purposes only.

As for the question, I assume that this is in part due to, as bethany said, the cultural expectations. Nobody is arguing that those exist.

Most immigrants come and start families here or bring very young children here. And why doesn't culture apply to them? Why don't they all turn out to work at 7-11's and drive cabs simply because that's what culture says? Is it an internal culture then? Who is responsible for that if it's internal??

-Rudey

[AKA_Monet]

Originally posted by bethany1982
Some minorities do achieve as much or more than whites. I don't believe that society in general holds anyone back who is able to compete on their own. Perhaps certain cultures have different expectations of their members than others, both high and low.

That fact in and of itself makes the difference...

Certain cultures DO have different expectation its member's achievements...

It may be one thing to GRADUATE from high school and goto college--which many young people are told in underrepresented communities...

It is completely another to matriculate through college, GRADUATE with honors and obtain viable employment or go to graduate or professional school...

In my arena, most folks are telling their children--goto college and be like your cousin "so-n-so"... Forget the fact that one has to REGISTER for classes to be in college... The whole cultural understanding of academia is being misunderstood by non-mainstream cultures...

And if the college/university itself does not have a "culture within a culture"--which just the reality of the situation--then success rates for students of color, especially underrepresented student's retention rates are seen as lower... Or worse, folks just do not see the need to apply...

Hell, I would NOT apply to UCLA right now, because I wouldn't want to be told that I am not good enough to be there... I would rather be able to prove to myself that I failed any given test because I lacked the understanding of the material or chose not to study rather than thinking that the professor or my classmates were racist...

That is why many in the African American community would choose to go to Historically Black Colleges and Universities (HBCUs) because they just want to circumvent suffering that kind of pressure. At the same time, the HBCU's are inherently unequal and do not have similar resources as mainstream colleges and universities...

[bethany1982]

Originally posted by sugar and spice
What about the possibility that some people who can't compete on their own fail to do so because of society issues? Otherwise, you're getting very close to saying that certain races are innately not prepared to succeed, or at least less prepared to succeed than others. Which is sticky. And not a point that I want to argue.

What are these issues? I would never say that certain races couldn’t compete. That's the approach of Affirmative Action. Affirmative Action leaves the impression that certain races cannot compete without preferential treatment. If I thought that I could receive preferential treatment through AA, that belief just might lower my personal standards or self-expectation. I am saying just the opposite. Let everyone compete according to his or her own ability! Race has nothing to do with ability. If an individual cannot compete according to their own ability, perhaps they need to either work a little harder to achieve or formulate different career/educational goals. If there are indeed societal issues designed by whites to hold back certain races, why don't these same designers hold back all minorities?