Women in pants - Page 4

DeltAlum · #46 07-22-2003, 11:09 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by justamom
Be realistic everyone, the person signing your paycheck is PROBABLY over 40 and THAT ALONE is a hint to attire. I keep going back to Collin-"Know your audience."

I'm glad you mentioned that, JAM, because sooner or later I was going to have to. The fact of the matter is that the person you will probably be interviewing with, and working for is someone like me. And I'm probably a little more liberal than a lot of managers.

Fact is, though, whether you like it or not it's "my" first impression of you that has to count bigtime.

valkyrie · #47 07-22-2003, 11:27 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by KappaKittyCat
I couldn't look like a man if I tried. Even wearing pants, I'm not fooling anybody.

Oink to you, too.

You took the words right out of my keyboard! My mama never told me that unless I wear a skirt, I'm trying to look like a man. Damn, what am I going to do with these breasts?! They're really not helping!

GeekyPenguin · #48 07-22-2003, 11:36 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by valkyrie
You took the words right out of my keyboard! My mama never told me that unless I wear a skirt, I'm trying to look like a man. Damn, what am I going to do with these breasts?! They're really not helping!

Cut them off and stuff them in your pants.

KKC, I am LMAO at your "Oink to you too" comment.

shopgirl · #49 07-23-2003, 12:29 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by justamom
Shopgirl-I understand your feelings, but I think the original thought was about the initial interview. After that, one must weigh where they are headed and who is in charge. Be realistic everyone, the person signing your paycheck is PROBABLY over 40 and THAT ALONE is a hint to attire. I keep going back to Collin-"Know your audience."

In most cases, once you've sealed the interview and gotten the job, the dress code will relax...UNLESS you are in a promo position. Then, it depends on what you're promoting. Just remember the basic rule from rush to real life jobs. It's better to be a little overdresed than underdressed. Why would one take such great care during sorority rush and NOT for a job interview??? They are PAYING you, and in a sorority, the fact is, you are paying THEM!

JAM,

I understand what you mean.

I understand your point regarding
the characteristics of an (potential)
employer (male, over 40). I also like
being a woman and being feminine.

It's just aggravating to read that this is even
an issue. Especially since I have been interviewing
for jobs and I have been wearing pant suits to my
interviews. To think that my wearing a pant suit vs. a
skirt suit would result in me not getting the job is
just disgusting.

To be honest I didn't even give it that much
thought. The little time I did spend thinking
about it, I concluded that wearing a pant suit
would make me appear more serious, more
intelligent.

I actually love skirts and I think they look
professional and beautiful on women. However,
I would be more apt to take a woman who is
wearing pants/pant suit a little more serious.
To me it says she means business. She's not
here to show off her legs, to attract your attention
downward. She wants you to look her in the face.

DeltAlum · #50 07-23-2003, 01:20 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by shopgirl
To me it says she means business. She's not
here to show off her legs, to attract your attention
downward. She wants you to look her in the face.

Let's get past something.

What we're supposed to be talking about here is professionalism -- not sexism. Not that the later doesn't happen sometimes.

The reality is, though, that when I am conducting an interview, I'm generally behind my desk, and the applicant is on the other side facing me -- way to close for me to be looking at legs. At least without standing up, bending over and being real obvious.

Which would be the absolute dumbest thing I could do. Why end up in court?

What we're talking about here when it comes to dress is first impressions. From that point on, it's time to dazzle me with experience, intelligence and personality -- probably in that order.

Look. It isn't that sexism is totally gone from the professional world -- but for smart managers (men and women), it is. There's just too much at stake legally. (By the way, I keep my door open when almost anyone is in my office, but particularly a woman -- just in case, I want no chance of anyone thinking any hanky panky is going on.)

But, when you walk in and shake hands for the first time, I like to see someone who dresses and acts professionally. As I've already said, I think women look more professional in a nice skirt suit. I suspect that most hiring managers -- men and women -- probably feel the same.

valkyrie · #51 07-23-2003, 01:09 PM

DeltAlum, I'm curious as to why you think a woman looks more professional in a skirt suit. I'm not critical of your opinion at all, but I want to understand it because I don't.

I almost always wear pants to interviews, partly because I feel like I'm not supposed to so I do it anyway, and partly because I have a tattoo on my ankle and I always feel shy about revealing it at interviews -- so it's a trade off, I guess. I also prefer pants because I HATE HATE HATE pantyhoes. I think that if we were like other countries where women wear skirts without pantyhoes to work, I would wear skirts much more often. I also like to wear open toed shoes whenever I can, but not to an interview of course. So that means pants or a longer skirt -- yes, even to appear in court. Nobody has ever said anything to me about it not being appropriate, so I'll keep doing it.

DeltAlum · #52 07-23-2003, 01:27 PM

Well, to be honest, I think it's just a convention that I've become used to, and it seems like the correct thing to do.

I know that's one of those things that has no real logical -- it's just the way it is.

By the way, it hasn't been mentioned anywhere, but men should wear a suit or jacket and tie to interviews. It's amazing how many young men don't understand that.

Conservative? Yeah. But so is big business.

shopgirl · #53 07-23-2003, 02:18 PM

It seems odd to me that wearing a
skirt is viewed as being more conservative
than wearing pants.

I am conservative in my dress attire.
It seems to me that wearing pants is more
conservative than skirts since skirts reveal
more skin.

(Valkyrie)
I think that if we were like other countries
where women wear skirts without pantyhoes
to work, I would wear skirts much more often.
I also like to wear open toed shoes whenever
I can, but not to an interview of course.

I also agree with this. If you live in a warm climate, as
I have for the past several years (Arizona and now Florida)
it is especially uncomfortable to wear pantyhose. Luckily the
office I just started working in is quite casual, so I don't
have to worry about this...for now anyway.

astroAPhi · #54 07-23-2003, 03:27 PM

Thank God I'm in engineering. Before I came in for my first day my manager told me to wear pants and closed toed shoes. With the number of random times I've had to go into the bays, I see why.

Some woman showed up earlier this summer for a tour of the Orbiter Processing Facility wearing what she probably thought was a cute little skirt suit. The moment she walked in, the guard stopped her and said, "Ma'am, I'm going to have to ask to to put on a bunny suit." She chose to remain behind instead and didn't get to see the orbiter like anyone else.

I'm a little bothered as well that it's a big deal, but for me it's more of a comfort issue. With dresses or skirts I usually feel like I have to wear high heels, or uncomfortable shoes, and these soccer feet just don't like that. When I wear skirts on a regular basis I usually have some dressy but comfortable sandals that I can wear instead, but those aren't appropriate in a setting like this.

I dunno... I guess I'm one of those people that thinks I look just as nice in a pantsuit as I do in a skirt suit.

enlightenment06 · #55 07-23-2003, 03:32 PM

A nice pant suit can be very sexy.

I don't think there's anything wrong with wearing a pant suit versus a skirt; both are professional and it really shouldn't matter what is "feminine" enough.

Then again I'm not signing anyone's check...yet

Optimist Prime · #56 07-23-2003, 04:38 PM

I prefer women without pants.

DeltAlum · #57 07-23-2003, 10:00 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Optimist Prime
I prefer women without pants.

Cute -- but Earp beat you to it. (See above)

Just in case anyone missed it, I'll repeat. This isn't about Sexism, or sexy or anything like that.

It's about professionalism. Whether you want to believe it or not -- whether is makes sense or not -- managers and hiring managers perceive a skirt as more professional in big business.

FuzzieAlum · #58 07-24-2003, 01:53 PM

We frequently have mass interviews at my building for blue-collar positions. None of the applicants wear (or are expected to) suits. However, the successful applicatants wear something like dress shirts and khakis, or a nice skirt and sweater set.

Then there are the not-so-successful applicants. I am amazed at what some of these people come in wearing! Like a track suit. Or baggy jeans with a t-shirt, backpack and pocket chain (while eating a sandwich).

And it's not just there. I went to a group interview for a managment internship position, and in a room full of suits one woman wore a floral dress and crocheted sweater. Ouch. I wasn't surprised when she was eliminated.

I guess that I'm thinking, OK, pantsuits might not score the points as much as skirted suits in some cases, but either way you're at least not screwing up badly!

Once you get the job, it really isn't over, even if the dress code relaxes. You look around here and you can tell who is going places and who isn't. It's not formality, mostly, since the CEO goes around in jeans, but it's conservativeness and covering up your body. The women showing their tummies, wearing shorts, wearing flip flops, or sporting the leopard-print mini aren't about to get promoted. That's fine with some of them - some of the admin assistants love their jobs and don't want to move up - but I don't think all of them realize what they're doing. Guys do have it easier, because how many guys go around in midriff-baring shirts even when they're not working?

And it's not fair, but as a 27-year old perky blue-eyed blonde, I have to dress a lot more conservatively than a woman ten or twenty years older than me to be taken seriously. I'm the "baby" inmy department, and my goal is to make people forget that.

(Well, it was, anyway, but since I'm leaving in a week I'm not too worried about a promotion at the moment!)

Munchkin03 · #59 07-24-2003, 02:55 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by astroAPhi

Some woman showed up earlier this summer for a tour of the Orbiter Processing Facility wearing what she probably thought was a cute little skirt suit. The moment she walked in, the guard stopped her and said, "Ma'am, I'm going to have to ask to to put on a bunny suit." She chose to remain behind instead and didn't get to see the orbiter like anyone else...
I dunno... I guess I'm one of those people that thinks I look just as nice in a pantsuit as I do in a skirt suit.

I know what you're talking about...in architecture, I think I'd be laughed at if I came to a site in a skirt and heels. The few times I did wear a skirt to work, it got pretty grimy when I went out to take pictures. Admitted, there are times when you do have to dress up traditionally, but in the real life situations you wear casual pants if not jeans. I know that in a "boys' club" like architecture, I really don't want to stand out by being the Skirt.

sugar and spice · #60 07-24-2003, 03:29 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by docetboy
I haven't followed this thread but want to add my comments: I think women look a lot more proffessional and better if they wear a skirt and appropiate blouse instead of trying to look like a man.

Oh my lord, I can't believe you even said that.

What is it about pants that makes them "men's clothing"?

The average woman isn't going to look ANYTHING like a man even when she puts on the pants.

Quote:

Originally posted by DeltAlum

Just in case anyone missed it, I'll repeat. This isn't about Sexism, or sexy or anything like that.

It's about professionalism. Whether you want to believe it or not -- whether is makes sense or not -- managers and hiring managers perceive a skirt as more professional in big business.

Just because you say it's not about sexism doesn't make it so. The fact that managers perceive a skirt as more professional smacks of sexism -- because even if, on one level, it's about professionalism, WHY is it considered more professional to be wearing a skirt? Especially with the "don't show too much skin" advisory, one would think that it would be better to wear pants since they cover more.

There are political aspects to everything. Just because something is about professionalism on the surface level doesn't mean there aren't ties to sexism if you dig deeper.