Oldest Group

[MTSUGURL]

Every group seems to be the first or oldest at something... all very confusing.

[MysticCat]

Originally posted by wptw (in part)
1400? Ha! My fraternity was founded on the brotherhood of Jesus. So we were founded in 0. Beat that!

[tongue in cheek] Now, now, wtpw. You know perfectly well that Jesus didn't begin his ministry (and therefore did not gather disciples around him) until circa A.D. 30. So your claim for the year 0 is obviously an exaggeration.

Beat your founding date? Well, Acacia is a direct off-shoot of Freemasonry, and Freemasonry was founded during the building of Solomon's temple, circa 10th Century B.C. So Ha! backatcha.[/tongue in cheek]

As always, a good post wptw.

[wptw]

Thanks MysticCat.

But Farm House fraternity might then have all of us beat. They might claim a founding date of 11000 B.C. when plants were first domesticated in the fertile crescent.

Phi Beta Kappa is the oldest greek letter society. That's really the generally accepted answer to this question.

As for who was the first women's group to call themselves a sorority or the first fraternity to have a house or the first group to have traveling secretaries or the first group to bring their badge to the moon... personally, I find those discussions tiresome and pointless.

So here's a better question:
who will be the LAST fraternity or the LAST sorority in existence?
Who will be the one group to survive the publication of their ritual, the dwindling of their numbers, a new round of anti-greek legislation on college campuses and the major lawsuits stemming from their ongoing hazing practices?

wptw

[phimugirlie01]

Originally posted by Angelic
After a little research we can conclude that Pi Phi was the first national women's fraternity...

Pi Phi established their second chapter in 1868 at Iowa Wesleyan

Phi Mu established their second chapter in 1910 at Brenau University.

ADPi established their second chapter in 1905 at Salem College.

Actually, Phi Mu established their second chapter (Beta) in 1904 at Hollins College.

[RACooper]

Originally posted by hendrixski
I'm also very interested in other secret collegiate societies, like skull and bones etc etc. if anyone can list stuff on that I'd appreciate it.

Well.... as far as I know there are currently around five secret societies/orders here in Toronto some of which do claim that they have been around for at least the last century. Only two of which I happened to believe, and those I can date back at least 150 years here on campus. Of course my facts and sources could be wrong, after all they are secret

However, some groups that claim that they have or do exist here I tend to discount. The prime example being Theta Nu Epsilon; their website claims a chapter here, but no record what so ever exists of them; so either they are very, very secret, or its all just conjecture and speculation.

[James]

wptw,

Your exasperation is amusing but may be out of place on this thread.

People are just reciting whats in their pledge manuals for the most part, and the first few chapters of all the different pledge manuals are probably the same. I only have 5 different Fraternity pledge manuals so can't speak for sure.

As far as history goes, I actually know quite a bit about the history of Kappa Sigma as an organization, having read both the written histories of the Fraternity as well as attending the "secret seminars" lol.

So yes, obviously Kappa Sigma wasn't started as a colony of an Italian Fraternity in 1400, although your mockery wasn't completely appreciated.

I don't particularly enjoy being mocked by someone who sits in safety on the other side of a computer screen. *yawn* its tedious.

However, going a step further, I have actually read Baird's Manual of College Fraternities from the late 1800s and have seen some of the historical discrepancies in the more modern published histories of Kappa Sigma and other groups.

If you want to really amuse yourselves go back to the Early Baird's and see how the names of your founders may be uncertain and other details you take for granted may change.

But, I don't think this thread was meant to look too deeply into the history of the various groups.

About the badge on the moon. Well . . . its kind of like Shroedinger's (sp) Cat. Unless we actually look for the badge we don't know for sure . . . LOL.

Otherwise its kind of like the Thomas Theorem in sociology.

Originally posted by wptw
The average greek's lack of knowledge about our own history, as displayed in this thread, is really troubling to me. Some of you will argue ad nauseum about which sorority/women's fraternity/secret women's society was the first to be/do/say/have XYZ (also as displayed in this thread), yet you don't know even the most basic history.

Phi Beta Kappa was certainly NOT just an honor society. It is widely recognized as the "big bang" of the greek universe. Breathesgelatin already covered this. One correction though: Phi Beta Kappa revealed their rituals and constitution voluntarily, albeit under strong pressure from the anti-masonic crowd. They were not forced to do so. And it was not their "discovery" that prompted this - they were already well known to the universities and communities where they were established.

Today we associate a "social" fraternity with a house, functions, etc., but obviously things were very different in the beginning. Students in Schenectady in 1825 didn't go hang out at the KA Society house on weekends to drink beer and meet women. They met secretly to share friendship and read literary works. (THEN they'd go out to drink beer and meet women!)

Every greek should know all about Phi Beta Kappa and the Kappa Alpha Society. Your GLO owes its very existence to these groups.

How this "all but 2 US presidents were greek" myth perpetuates itself is beyond me.

Kappa Sigma was NOT founded in 1400. The fraternity was indeed based on Chrysoloras' brotherhood in Bologna, and the group does make use of this symbolism. But to claim a direct link between the Bologna brotherhood and the Kappa Sigma fraternity is preposterous. Another myth perpetuated by someone's shallow desire to be "the first THIS to do THAT".

1400? Ha! My fraternity was founded on the brotherhood of Jesus. So we were founded in 0. Beat that!

Most fraternities were NOT founded by masons or children of masons. The masonic influence is unquestionable, but let's not get carried away.

And before someone chimes in with this old chestnut, NO your badge is not on the moon. And there are no rituals in the library of congress.

Doodlebug's post was right on the money - how about debating which group has the best philanthropy, or the highest GPA, or the least number of chapters on suspension, or the best pledge program? We try to attract new members with these ridiculous "fun facts" and then we bitch when those members turn out to be more concerned with trivial things than with the central ideals of our GLO!

wptw

[carnation]

Originally posted by doodlebug
I don't think that it's really important that someone was founded first, second or whatever-I think that it's what they are accomplishing today that is outstanding that ought to be talked about the most. Of course it's fun to know facts about all of this, but what we do today is what will save the system from self imploding. Which organization donated the most to charity this last year? Which one went without a single infraction for hazing? That's something that an organization can really brag about-especially given the climate that is negative in the press.

And I think that name thing is just relative to when the organization was founded. After the word sorority came along, I don't know for sure, but I don't think any of the groups called themselves fraternities anymore.

Just quoting this to protect it from deletion! Thank you for the evidence!

[Tom Earp]

Ah the ispidty of it all!

Hell, 1909, LXA, now just who all cares who was first!

Baird's Manual shows many who did not survive. Which issue do you have?

Are you one of them or one of the "OLDEST"? How many Chapters?

Am I suppose to feel that if You are not a LXA, then you are second rate because of many reasons? NOT!

The important thing is who is still here and trying to grow and hang on to to what we profess in our own way and thinking.

If you do not understand what I am saying then UCK!

Love ya all!

Sh*t go to doo floors, carpet and cook! Already did laundry!

[wptw]

James,

Exasperation with ignorance of any type is never out of place, especially among educated people who are supposed to know a thing or two about greek history!

I have quite a few pledge manuals, and most of them give at least a paragraph to Phi Beta Kappa and Kappa Alpha society. Anyway, perhaps pledges should be taught more than just to recite what’s in the first few pages of their pledge manual.

I am not mocking you or Kappa Sigma fraternity, you understand. But I am indeed mocking members that perpetuate this “founded in 1400” myth because if they’re passing misinformation intentionally, then it’s rather vain. And if they’re doing it unintentionally, then it’s rather ignorant. Vanity and ignorance both being most mockworthy in my book!

We all “sit in safety on the other side of a computer screen”. Not sure I get your point there. Also I’m a little surprised to be chastised for a sarcastic posting style that you yourself seem to share. In any case, if you find actual debate and the correction of misinformation tedious, then feel free to skip ahead to the next exciting 10-page chapter of “which women’s secret fraternity was the first one east of the Mississippi river but west of the Allegheny mountains to use the greek letter Omicron as the first letter in their name and to choose the yellow-bellied sapsucker as their offical bird”. Now THAT’S tedious.

If this trivia interests you, then fine and dandy. But remember that trivia is, well… trivial. The value of your organization does not lie in famous alums and firsts. So why mislead yourself and others to think that way.

Don’t you find it odd that people expend so many BTUs arguing this minutia and yet don’t have their facts straight on the most basic aspects of greek history? Don’t you think it’s strange that people think these firsts add some value to their organization, when in fact Baird’s is littered with plenty of groups who were likely first to do this-or-that… before going belly up!? Don’t you find it disturbing that often the first messages rushees receive about our groups are shallow details like famous alumni and century-old “firsts”?

If I put myself back in the shoes of a prospective pledge and read through the more squabbly threads debating “firsts”, it doesn’t paint the best picture of greeks. I recall being a college freshman and getting anti-greek rhetoric from every angle – family, friends, classmates. I imagine that’s fairly typical. So I would think my fellow greeks would share my concern about endlessly arguing amongst ourselves about such shallow details, all the while getting the more “meaty” details of greek history wrong.


Agreed, Baird’s has always had its inaccuracies, particularly in the very early and the very late editions. However, I think Wm Baird did exceptionally well considering the archival technology available to a greek researcher in the 1880s. So I can excuse the relatively few mistakes he made in his early manuals. It’s harder to excuse a modern greek who still thinks Phi Beta Kappa was just an honor society, or who doesn't know who came after Phi Beta Kappa. The importance of these groups is not some transient factoid. Their significance to the greek world has been hard fact for nearly 2 centuries.

Also agreed, this thread was not meant to look too deeply into history. DRau’s question was perfectly answered by the first 2 replies - by Madmax and PiKappRaider within 1 hour. Then the “firsts feeding frenzy” began (as it always seems to do). Personally, I feel that DRau as an Alpha Phi should have already known the answer, but whatever. I only jumped in to correct all the mistakes (and of course to share my disappointment that we seem to know so little of substance about ourselves as a community).



As far as the badge on the moon goes… The difference is that Erwin Schrodinger realized and admitted he did not know whether his cat was alive, dying or dead in there. He did not go to some pimps/hos party, hear some stupid unsubstantiated rumor that his cat was in fact dead, and then start posting all willy-nilly about his dead cat on DeadCatChat.com.

While we’re on the subject, the Thomas theorem is about as useful as a dead cat. Perhaps less so since, for example, the Thomas Theorem is not very useful for incapacitating an intruder in your home or weighing down the barbecue cover out on the deck.

(Cue PETA.)

wptw

[AchtungBaby80]

Wptw, I have no idea what you're talking about, but your post is really funny!

[honeychile]

Originally posted by wptw
(severely edited)

...If this trivia interests you, then fine and dandy. But remember that trivia is, well… trivial. The value of your organization does not lie in famous alums and firsts. So why mislead yourself and others to think that way...
wptw

This paragraph sums it all up. The entire Greek system means diddly if we all wear black face, ignore philanthropy, and stab each other in the back.

honeychile

[wptw]

Originally posted by honeychile


The entire Greek system means diddly if we all wear black face, ignore philanthropy, and stab each other in the back.

honeychile

Well, not if we can boast that we were the FIRST group to wear blackface, ignore philanthropy and stab each other in the back. Then pledges will flock to us because we were first! Right?

wptw

[honeychile]

Originally posted by wptw



Well, not if we can boast that we were the FIRST group to wear blackface, ignore philanthropy and stab each other in the back. Then pledges will flock to us because we were first! Right?

wptw

Of course! But only if your mascot is the yellow-bellied sapsucker and your badge is on the moon!

honeychile