Wood

[SilverTurtle]

I have this tremendous urge to reply to the previous few posts... yet I don't know where to even begin... so if this seems to wander around and/or gets excessively long, I apologize in advance.

Starting with the whole Frat vs. Navy SEALS

PLEASE...Mikki's right. Your frat is nothing like the SEALS. Unless you really are planning on invading Iran. Or Canada. Or something. Personally, I would guess that there is some hazing that is uncalled for in all branches of the military. And I don't think it's O.K. However, I can only imagine that war really is hell, and those men and women who are unfortunate enough to go through it (war)will have to handle a lot more than most of us ever will. So I can see where some of those exercises that borderline on hazing are valuable (Mikke gave some good examples). What on earth is your frat involved in that requires you to be able to handle taking wood or other beatings, or whatever else you brag about? I will say this: I'm not, nor was I ever, in the military. I have a few relatives that were/are, but my knowledge IS limited in this area.

Next... I think it's important to have pride in your GLO. I even think you, Charle, should be proud (although we apparently differ on why you should be proud). We all chose to earn our letters because of what they represent to us. It was something we value + want to be a part of. Which brings me to.. why haven't you told us the name of your GLO? I can tell you mine: Phi Beta Fraternity: a national professional association for the creative and performing arts. And I'll bet just about everyone else on this board will tell you theirs. It's got to be 1 of 3 things, as far as I can tell:

• you're not actually in a GLO
• you know that if any members (actives or alumni) see you bragging about how you haze and got hazed they are going to do more than kick your a**
• your frat doesn't do anything of real value to the community, and someone who knows it will see your posts and tell it like it is

Speaking of value to the community.. even if you won't tell us the name of your frat, you could at least tell us something it does. To my knowledge, all nationals have at least 1 major philanthropy they support. And all of the chapters (even 'social') that I can think of do a lot of other stuff. And they have to worry about their grades while they're doing it, because if they don't, they can't remain active.

Now, it seems in the last few posts we have all gotten a little upset and maybe frustrated. Even Mikki But I agree with her.. it takes a lot to be a part of my organization. And it all comes down to

"How bad do you want it?"

Thankfully for myself, Mikki (from what I can tell) and many others here, our chapters respect what Greek life is really all about, starting with the Flat Hat Society when GLO's came into existence as literary (+ eventually other academic) societies. And when our bigs, etc. were "testing" us to see how bad we wanted it, they went about it in a mature, productive, and successful way. (And that was not by hazing). How many of your (Charle) alumni are involved day-by-day, or maybe week-by-week, or even month-by-month, in your GLO? Now, how many of mine are? Why are they?

Getting off the soap box in just a minute, but first:

Did you ask Mikki if she had a bake sale?! What does that have to do with anything?! And maybe they did and the $ went to help some underprivelaged kids or the homeless or to fight disease! How is that something to make fun of? Every year my chapter participates in "daffodil days".. it's in conjuction with the American Cancer Society and all the $ goes to help w/ cancer research. So do you want to make fun of me for selling daffodils? Or the men in my fraternity who sell them? Trust me, I won't be offended.

Now i really am stepping down off the soap box ..

Charle- if you can justify to me hazing, i will leave it alone. (I won't agree, but I won't fight with you about it, either. Unless you really tick me off )I mean like Mikki did with the SEALS.. for example:
"We got paddled to teach us this..."

And to be honest... I can't figure out how you can finish that sentence without sounding like a moron. And you can't say "to build brotherhood"--that's a total copout, and we all know it is.

Ok, I think that's everything i wanted to say


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SilverTurtle@greekchat.com
Phi Beta Fraternity
Phi chapter

[Charle]

Do you want to know what Frat I am in? I am not a member of GLO "GLOW"....the Glorious Ladies of Wrestling....... If you really want to know what Frat I am in you can identify it by the tagline phrase. "Eight men thoroughly immersed.....". I am willing to bet that some of the people who posted earlier in this topic string can name my frat. Hint: Ronald E. McNair.

[SilverTurtle]

Charle-

you have confirmed for me that there is a reason you're being so secretive about your membership. and i really don't care that much. FYI- I don't make it a habit to memorize the history, members, and mottos of every GLO (Greek letter organziation) or BGLO ('black Greek letter organization) there is. If you belong to a non-Greek letter organization, fine. My bad.

I do like to be informed, but get real. If I just named off a few famous alumni of my fraternity, I hightly doubt you would have a clue what i was talking about.

Your decision not to respond to my quesiton regarding justifying hazing tells me that you can't justify it. (Quelle surprise).

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SilverTurtle@greekchat.com
Phi Beta Fraternity
Phi chapter

[SigEpYoda]

I finally remmember my password. Anyway, this conversation is getting heated. I like it, it create an open discussion on the status of GLOs. Now here is the status:

(1) The pool that we are recruiting at are declining. Majority of GLOs are seeing a declining in membership. WIth few exception, those that are actually tackling the hazing, alcohol and other risk mgt issues aggressively. Perfect example is George Washington University greek system. Almost every chapters has completely eliminated hazing and saw it's number nearly triple in two years.

(2) Many national organization are facing millions of dollars in lawsuits from risk mgt. problems. This mean, higher premium for insurances, and higher dues for its members. This will cause either prospective members not joining due to financial cost, active members going inactive due to financial cost, or a whole national organization declaring bankruptcy.

GLOs were never meant to due secret convert operation in hostile countries. So we don't need any of this BS that has many of our leaders loosing their hair every night. It's quite simple, hazing is not acceptable, ever. Let me clarify, I'm not talking about wearing your pins, getting signature, all that things. Although if uncheck, those little thing will result in big things.

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Try Not . . . Do

[Charle]

----------------?????????????????????????????????/
>>>(1) The pool that we are recruiting at >>>are declining. Majority of GLOs are
>>>seeing a declining in membership. WIth >>>few exception, those that are actually >>.tackling the hazing, alcohol and other >>risk mgt issues aggressively. Perfect >>example is George Washington University >>>greek system. Almost every chapters has >>>completely eliminated hazing and saw it's >>>number nearly triple in two years.--------???????????????????



Read the words spoken by brother in my Fraternity.

Members Versus Men

The Greek Letter Societies among our group appear to have entered upon a period of mad competition for obtaining members. Pledges are increasing in number. Scarcely a student on the college campus but wears a pledge pin or a frat pin. Are the fraternities forgetting their original high standards? Can it be said that every man who enters college is of Fraternity material? If in any place, our Fraternity has entered this mad race for members, pause and consider.

"The value of our Fraternity is not in numbers, but in men, in real brotherhood. Eight men thoroughly immersed in the true spirit are far greater assets than eighty with lukewarm enthusiasm."

[SigmaRhoyalty]

I think some people/groups of people take the whole pleding/hazing thing too far. I am a member of a BGLO and I definitely want true sorors in my organization, but not at the expense of getting sued and having my chapter stripped. And we all have seen cases of this occuring. I believe that the women who are pledging should go through a process, but NO, I don't think we should beat them senselessly and try to break them down mentally/physically to the point where it creates problems. I have spoken with males of certain BGLOs who have told me that their process lasted for up to three years! I can only speak for myself (because my views don't necessary reflect those of my chapter or my sorority as a whole), but is this REALLY necessary?

Hazing is both a white and black issue, it's just done differenly by both groups. Both can result in negative consequences. I think there should be a limit to what we put people through. Just because someone is beat every night with a paddle doesn't necessary mean that person will be dedicated member. Just because you force some one to drink shots all night and then walk through snow naked doesn't mean that he will be a productive member. Many times these same people that you helped pledge are the same ones who fail to pay their dues or participate in community service events. Yeah, they get hazed, but only because they want to belong.

I have spoken with frat guys who told me that the process they went through DID NOT make them bond with those who pledged them. Even after they crossed they did not have strong, positive relationships. Some say that if they knew then what they know now they would have bypassed undergrad. What does this say about the hazing that people are subjected to. The only way I would not have love for a soror is if she didn't know her history, wasn't active, or financial. If she contributes to the sorority and exemplifies all the positive qualities that we are taught to possess, then she is okay with me.

[LXAAlum]

Originally posted by Charle:
----------------?????????????????????????????????/

Read the words spoken by brother in my Fraternity.

Members Versus Men

The Greek Letter Societies among our group appear to have entered upon a period of mad competition for obtaining members. Pledges are increasing in number. Scarcely a student on the college campus but wears a pledge pin or a frat pin. Are the fraternities forgetting their original high standards? Can it be said that every man who enters college is of Fraternity material? If in any place, our Fraternity has entered this mad race for members, pause and consider.

"The value of our Fraternity is not in numbers, but in men, in real brotherhood. Eight men thoroughly immersed in the true spirit are far greater assets than eighty with lukewarm enthusiasm."

Once again, you are not disclosing the True name of your frat (I pause to use fraternity in this case...). Original High Standards - Real Brotherhood? Really? Did these "original" standards mean physical abuse? Real Brotherhood? Do you have to beat this out of new members?

Earlier, I asked if God forbid, something goes wrong, were you will to be accountable as a brother? In the next post, your answer, apparently, was no. What kind of brotherhood is that?

It may be true that pledges in your organization are increasing in number - but, what is the pledge/initiation ratio?



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Don't be your brother's keeper; rather, be your brother's Brother.

[This message has been edited by LXAAlum (edited April 21, 2000).]

[LXAAlum]

I figured it out - not too hard either - If Charle really is a brother of anything, it is apparently

Omega Psi Phi

Q-Dog, Omega, etc....



Kind of interesting considering that their motto is:

Friendship is Essential to the Soul



[This message has been edited by LXAAlum (edited April 21, 2000).]

[ZetaAce]

It's also interesting to note that Omega Psi Phi just settled with a hazing victim to to the tune of 1 million dollars.

Charle- how do you feel about that? Doesn't it bother you that fraternities and sororities (not just Omega) are losing so much money over such nonsense? Money that can go towards scholarships and charity?

ZetaAce

[mgdzkm433]

Wether or not any of us are bias, makes no difference. The fact of the matter is, it is illegal and participating in hazing not only puts his chapter in a bad situation, it puts all sororities and fraternities in a bad situation. Every greek organization feels the effects of hazing, wether it is their organization or not. The hazing situations from the past is what has caused the crack down and the new rules and regulations regarding pledge processes throughout the world. What his organization does affects my organization as well. It might not be fair or right, but it's true. So what his organzation does concerns me as well. I am not going to just sit around and just worry about what my organization does, I'm going to worry about all greek organization. If I don't think its right or good for a pledge in my organization to be hazed, I'm not going to think its right or good for a pledge in another organization to be hazed. We as individuals don't just represent our own organizations, we represent greeks as a whole. Why should I tolarate some guy who thinks its cool? Why should I let him give greeks a bad name? He's not only making it worse for himself and his own organziation, he's making it worse for all greeks.

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Mikki Gates
Delta Zeta Alum
Kappa Mu Chapter
Sigma Alpha Iota Alum
Eta Tau Chapter

"I would rather have thirty minutes of wonderful than a lifetime of nothing special."

--Julia Roberts
(Steel Magnolias)

Visit me at:
http://homepages.go.com/~dzkm433/index.html
and
http://www.calypso.com/dzkm433/welcomtomyworld.chtml

[SilverTurtle]

What Mikki said was right on. It's okay, and expected, that we all do things, including our intake process', different. But when people announe their hazing practices, it reflects all Greeks, even if it's not what's intended. The last thing any of us needs is more negative attitudes about Greek Life being spread.

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SilverTurtle@greekchat.com
Phi Beta Fraternity
Phi chapter

[SigEpYoda]

Number does matter. I know for chapters in my fraternity to be considered an active chapter in good standing, they must either have 40 or more members or in the top quartile of memberships on their respective campus. I've herd the argument of quality of quantity. I agreed with that, to an extent. A chapter wich has a low number has more problem to deal with. Problem such as financial and lack of resources. Number does matter. After all, the bigger chapter on campus has more functions, better mixers, more involved on campus and so on. That is from experience.

Although I do not condone senseless hazing or abuse to anyone in any frat/soror., I think we need to stop judging those who haze and have been hazed. Every organization has their own process's that they put GDI's through for membership. Whether it be a paper process or whether they travel the sands each has the same goal.

What Charle and his LB's did to get their letter's apparently brought them together as a unit. Again whether his process was right or wrong, doesn't matter because in their view, and in their chapter's view they were made right. His frat. may overtly outlaw whatever process he went thru, but in reality it is a process that supported by most in his frat. If it weren't they would shut down UG's all together.

Let me make one other point. It appears from reading the past posts, that some have exonerated those who are undergoing their process or being pledged from any wrong doing. I feel that any aspirant who is interested in joining an organization, particularly a BGLO, knows the deal before they undertake the process. Any BGLO member who disagree's with that is being unrealistic. Unfortunately, many expect their process to be tough based on rumors and movies. Every chapter in a frat./soror. does things differently. Some make it easy and some make it hard it's all up to that chapter.

I think we need to stop looking at this from a one-sided point of view and look at Charle's side for moment and understand why he feel's the way he does.

Peace!!!

[Abercrombie]

Just think about what you are saying " I need to beat this guy up so that he will be a good member of the fraternity" Where did this idea come from? Did your parents deck you when you didn't clean up your room in order to raise a good son or daughter? The fact is you may be creating people that stay with the fraternity but isn't that the same as the house wife who is beaten by her husband and then says she tripped down the stairs. Should you really have to tear a person down in order to build them up to be a strong leader? I sure don't think so. In my fraternity we create paddles as part of tradition. Hazing may have been a tradition in the past but when someone realizes a tradition is wrong it is there responsibility to change it. It was traditionally the man who has been the head of the household forever but now we share equal rights with women. This one example of breaking tradition. It really shouldn't be that hard to realize that beating these pledges isn't the true way to create a strong leader. I suggest every member of a greek lettered fraternity take a careful look at how they are running their pledge process and look how they could change it for the better.

Pi Kappa Phi
University of Oregon

[DiSTinguished]

Charle:
Where/When did you pledge?