Hopeful 2011 SEC PNM from "The North"

[AnchorAlumna]

This is a debate that will NEVER end.
I suggest you move this to the City Data forum.

[SthrnZeta]

Originally Posted by AnchorAlumna

This is a debate that will NEVER end.
I suggest you move this to the City Data forum.

This.

[agzg]

Originally Posted by barbino

I had a pretty good laugh at this - and yes, I'm from Chicago.

Have you been there? Does it really exist? Oh noble explorer, what is this Southern Illinois you speak of?

I only say this crap to get Drolefille's panties all wadded up. Lord knows, growing up in Western NY we had to deal with the same mindset from NYC-dwellers - "What's Buffalo? Rochester? Isn't that where everyone goes to college?"

[violetpretty]

We're mid-atlantic. We have aspects of Northern and Southern culture, but I'd say it's still more Northern than Southern, maybe like 60%-40%. I agree that the people who have lived in the DC area for generations are more Southern, but with the current cultural makeup, I can't say that Maryland/DC/NoVa are Southern. I'll make two lists:

Northern:
Maryland and DC didn't secede
very liberal---this is A LOT of what in my mind makes us more northern.
Educational performance
Low teen birth rate
not as religious---of the ones who are, most are Catholic, and Jews are a very prominent minority
fast pace of life
lots of transplants
lots of immigrants
diversity
we don't deep fry everything under the sun and we don't automatically load our iced tea with sugar
We don't have a southern accent
MoCo and Baltimore

Southern:
We are scared little bitches when it snows/we don't know how to drive in it
Maryland and Virginia were slave states, Virginia seceded
Our bagels do not compare to the ones in New York
We don't have the same accent that any other areas of the northeast have
We identify ourselves by counties and do not have townships
We are south of some stupid random line that allegedly divides north and south
Our weather is disgustingly hot

ETA: Of course there are a lot of "yes but..."s on these lists. There is no exact cultural line. I'll agree that 50 years ago the DC area probably identified as more Southern than Northern, but I think if you ask most residents TODAY, they'd identify as more Northern than Southern.

[SthrnZeta]

Originally Posted by violetpretty

We're mid-atlantic. We have aspects of Northern and Southern culture, but I'd say it's still more Northern than Southern, maybe like 60%-40%. I agree that the people who have lived in the DC area for generations are more Southern, but with the current cultural makeup, I can't say that Maryland/DC/NoVa are Southern. I'll make two lists:

Northern:
Maryland and DC didn't secede
very liberal---this is A LOT of what in my mind makes us more northern.
Educational performance
Low teen pregnancy rate
not as religious---of the ones who are, most are Catholic, and Jews are a very prominent minority
fast pace of life
lots of transplants
lots of immigrants
diversity
we don't deep fry everything under the sun and we don't automatically load our iced tea with sugar
We don't a southern accent
MoCo and Baltimore

Southern:
We are scared little bitches when it snows/we don't know how to drive in it
Maryland and Virginia were slave states, Virginia seceded
Our bagels do not compare to the ones in New York
We don't have the same accent that any other areas of the northeast have
We identify ourselves by counties and do not have townships
We are south of some stupid random line that allegedly divides north and south
Our weather is disgustingly hot

Ok, I would agree to this.

[Gusteau]

Originally Posted by kaeb

also, I know some people who live further than three miles from GMU and do not live on campus. But I think most of my friends do live on campus.

Hence the word majority being imperative in my statistic.

Originally Posted by violetpretty

Our bagels do not compare to the ones in New York

Such is true of any bagel outside of New York. Maybe Jersey. And that's a big maybe.

[Low C Sharp]

I don't know anyone who would call DC southern.

I do -- people who remember when it operated under Jim Crow. There was (and still is) segregation of a different kind in Northern and Western cities, of course. But by the 1950s, legally separated black and white schools were a Southern thing. There was and still is a meaningful regional difference between DC and its closest neighbors to the north, like Philadelphia.

So, Southern compared to Mobile? Heck no. But Southern in its own way, yes.
________

[DrPhil]

Since this is so fun. I generally agree with violetpretty regarding the different influences and that it is also generational.

Originally Posted by violetpretty

Educational performance
Low teen pregnancy rate

These are interesting northern qualifiers when you consider what education and teenage pregnancy are correlated with.

Originally Posted by violetpretty

fast pace of life
lots of transplants
lots of immigrants
diversity

These things would make a number of southern cities "northern."

When people moved from NY, and other parts of the north, to VA and other parts of the south decades ago, they brought population shifts and cultural influences with them. Examples include when D.C., Charlotte, and ATL became "Chocolate Cities" in the 80s and 90s. That didn't make these southern areas nonsouthern nor did it make them "kinda northern." It made them southern cities that were influenced by transplants.

Originally Posted by violetpretty

We don't a southern accent

In my opinion, there isn't A southern accent. I think it depends on the area of the south and what people consider to be a southern accent. There are accents that are (stereo)typically southern, just as there are (stereo)typical northern accents that not all people born and raised in the north have.

Originally Posted by violetpretty

Baltimore

What about Baltimore? LOL.

[Low C Sharp]

The Mason-Dixon line becomes very arbitrary and people's personal interpretations are what matters.

I think the Grits Line is more informative nowadays. If grits are offered as a matter of course when you order eggs at the local diner (not a shabby-chic gourmet diner, like the ones that serve grits in San Francisco), you're in the South. If they don't serve grits, or if they have them but you have to ask to substitute them for hash browns, you're not in the South. By this definition, Kentucky is clearly in the South, and parts of southern Illinois and Missouri are, too.

It's impossible to imagine an authentic diner in New Jersey where grits come with everything. That's true even in Cape May, which is geographically south of the Mason-Dixon.
________
Web Shows

[barbino]

Originally Posted by Low C Sharp

I think the Grits Line is more informative nowadays. If grits are offered as a matter of course when you order eggs at the local diner (not a shabby-chic gourmet diner, like the ones that serve grits in San Francisco), you're in the South. If they don't serve grits, or if they have them but you have to ask to substitute them for hash browns, you're not in the South. By this definition, Kentucky is clearly in the South, and parts of southern Illinois and Missouri are, too.

It's impossible to imagine an authentic diner in New Jersey where grits come with everything. That's true even in Cape May, which is geographically south of the Mason-Dixon.

I like this definition - grits are not usually served in Chicago, but I have had them in Springfield (IL). Indiana is another state which can be either Northern or Southern. Purdue is definitely Northern, but Jeffersonville and Evansville are almost part of Louisville, which for me is the start of the South. But most "Southerners" would never even consider any part of Kentucky to be the South. So is the real definition based on geography, culture, or grits?

[Benzgirl]

Well shoot. There are parts of Ohio that are even considered Southern. Like anything south of I-70, to some and south of Dayton to others.

[MysticCat]

Originally Posted by SthrnZeta

And I don't know anyone who would call DC southern.

Apparently, the Census Bureau does.

Originally Posted by DrPhil

In my opinion, there isn't A southern accent.

This is very true. There are many Southern accents.

Originally Posted by violetpretty

Northern:
Maryland and DC didn't secede
very liberal---this is A LOT of what in my mind makes us more northern.
. . .
not as religious---of the ones who are, most are Catholic, and Jews are a very prominent minority
. . .
lots of immigrants
diversity

I think there's some validity to this list speaking of Southerness culturally. But, in addition to what Dr. Phil said about transpants being true of many Southern cities, I have to note a few things that make even these observations a little blurry.

While Democratic doesn't necessarily equal liberal in the South, North Carolina has only elected 2 Republican governors since Reconstrution, and Democrats have controlled the state legislature consistently since Reconstruction, except for a two, two-year periods when Republicans have controlled or shared control of the House of Representatives.

Many Southern states have a long history of the presence of Jews as a prominent minority, and there are parts of the South with historically strong Catholic infuence.

I'm not disputing these differences exist, but because the South (like any other region) is not monolithic, almost any example can be followed by a "yes, but . . . ."

. . . and we don't automatically load our iced tea with sugar

Except this one. There is no "yes, but . . . ." This is just wrong.

Ah, this thread is fun.

[DrPhil]

Originally Posted by MysticCat

Ah, this thread is fun.

It is.

[AlphaFrog]

^ My Pastor's wife made some tea that wasn't "that sweet". OMG Cavities!! I could feel my teeth rotting.

[IrishLake]

Originally Posted by Benzgirl

Well shoot. There are parts of Ohio that are even considered Southern. Like anything south of I-70, to some and south of Dayton to others.

Hell, there's parts of Eastern Ohio that I consider "South." Anything that is considered in Ohio's Appalachian foothills is "south" to me. It's a lifestyle versus geographic location. It's always a matter of perspective!

Originally Posted by AlphaFrog

^ My Pastor's wife made some tea that wasn't "that sweet". OMG Cavities!! I could feel my teeth rotting.

That's the kind of tea I make . My husband yells at me, says his teeth hurt. I may be from northern Ohio, and he's from southern Ohio, but I make the better sweet tea.

My gramma was born in Little Rock and raised in Alabama, and my grampa is the oldest of 16 born and raised dirt poor in southwest Mississippi. Going to their house is like walking into the "South." I didn't learn my love for pan fried cornbread, fried okra (has to be done JUST RIGHT, if the okra is slimey I won't eat it), ham n' beans, grits with honey and butter, biscuits with real sorghum molasses, homemade fruit pie with homemade crust (made from real lard!) and just about any kind of wild game stewed with veggies and gravey of mysterious origins (I don't recommend the opossum, but squirrel and rabbit are good). It is because of these same grandparents that I grow and can my own vegetables, among doing a lot of other things a normal 30 year old mom from the "north" wouldn't do. I'm putting up beans and banana peppers this weekend. I kick myself for not paying attention when gramma taught me how to crochet when I was a teen. She made the best blankets. I'm going to have to re-teach myself. It's a dying art form. Her hands are too arthritic to do it anymore.

Damn. Now I'm going to have to go to Northern Ohio to get me some Southern Food, because I'm starving!