Leaving Fraternity

[Zillini]

Originally Posted by Psi U MC Vito

I'm just an undergrad so i have no idea how IHQ would react. But personally I can see them requiring you to keep up with all your obligations to the fraternity, including financial. I know that during the pledge process my chapter emphasizes that membership is for life, not just four years, and no turning back after youo are initiated. Just my opinion though.

There's a lawsuit waiting to happen. Locals and/or I/natls may work hard to change a person's mind, including red tape, paperwork and dragging their feet. But in the end if someone is dead set on resigning there is nothing that can be done to prevent it leaving no obligations on either side.

[TSteven]

Originally Posted by Zillini

There's a lawsuit waiting to happen. Locals and/or I/natls may work hard to change a person's mind, including red tape, paperwork and dragging their feet. But in the end if someone is dead set on resigning there is nothing that can be done to prevent it leaving no obligations on either side.

Just because someone decides they no longer want to live in their current apartment does not mean they can disregard the lease. They may still have to fulfill their legal obligations (i.e. rent).

It seems that if there are financial obligations, IHQ and/or the chapter would have similar legal grounds to go after the guy. If the guy was simply allowed to turn in his pin and quit - without some sort of legal termination by IHQ - then it seems like he might be able to claim he no longer is responsible for any money owed. Simply because he is no longer a member.

Now if IHQ and/or the chapter elects to forgo any of the obligations (i.e. write-off the financial obligation) just to be rid of the guy (i.e. trim the fat), then there are no obligations on either side. And frankly, I would venture to guess that as long as there isn't a lot of money involved, the guy would be cut loose.

[33girl]

Originally Posted by TSteven

It seems that if there are financial obligations, IHQ and/or the chapter would have similar legal grounds to go after the guy. If the guy was simply allowed to turn in his pin and quit - without some sort of legal termination by IHQ - then it seems like he might be able to claim he no longer is responsible for any money owed. Simply because he is no longer a member.

Yeah, but what Psi_U seemed to be saying is that the fraternities will not terminate someone on a national level and therefore he is still bound to his financial obliagations. I don't think that is true.

This isn't the Mafia. If someone wants to formally surrender their membership in an organization they can't be "made" to stay - if they request this several times and the NO refuses to remove them from the rolls, that is the NO's issue.

[DSTCHAOS]

Originally Posted by 33girl

Yeah, but what Psi_U seemed to be saying is that the fraternities will not terminate someone on a national level and therefore he is still bound to his financial obliagations. I don't think that is true.

This isn't the Mafia. If someone wants to formally surrender their membership in an organization they can't be "made" to stay - if they request this several times and the NO refuses to remove them from the rolls, that is the NO's issue.

A lot of people just don't know. LOL.

[DSTCHAOS]

You initially spoke so definitively, Psi U.

Now you're conceding the point as the personal opinion of an undergrad whose chapter taught him that membership is for life. I thought you were atleast telling us how your org's IHQ handles disaffiliation. Guess not.

The general rule is that no organization can make members honor their life commitment, when it comes to this topic. Policies differ but quite a few orgs would rather give you a "pep talk" to see where your heart is and then, if that fails, go through the necessary steps to show you the door. There's a great deal of necessary housekeeping when folks disaffiliate. My personal opinions of NPHCers who want to disaffiliate aside, I tell those sucky NPHCers who I encounter to contact NHQ if they are drifting from inactive status to wanting to disaffiliate/depledge. Don't just put your ritual and other info on the front porch for the mailperson to pick up.

[Tom Earp]

seersucker,

I hope our talk did some good.

Either way you decide, I wish you nothing but the best.

[DSTCHAOS]

Originally Posted by Tom Earp

seersucker,

I hope our talk did some good.

Either way you decide, I wish you nothing but the best.

It's never not funny when people make these kinds of announcements.

[Tom Earp]

Originally Posted by DSTCHAOS

It's never not funny when people make these kinds of announcements.

No you are absolutely correct!


While in talking with this young man, I found out the problem and we discussed his options.

There is a way for him to deactivate, but, that is between him and his Brothers only.

Whether he makes that decission, that is his and his only!

----------------------------------------------------

Zillini, I am not sure where your post came from about a lawsuit but wonder how ignorant you seem to be?

If you do not know, then let it go!

[33girl]

Originally Posted by Tom Earp

Zillini, I am not sure where your post came from about a lawsuit

She meant if an organization tried to collect fees and otherwise keep a member involved, even when he had tried to resign in the proper manner and notified the national office of his intentions, the organization would most likely be sued.

It would be like if you phoned, emailed, and wrote multiple letters to the gas company asking them to turn off your service and they kept on billing you.

[Psi U MC Vito]

Is it only NIC fraternities that take offense at the therm 'frat'? I know NPHC fraternities use it, but I'm not sure about NALFO or other orgs.

[knight_shadow]

Originally Posted by Psi U MC Vito

Is it only NIC fraternities that take offense at the therm 'frat'? I know NPHC fraternities use it, but I'm not sure about NALFO or other orgs.

Many of the NALFO fraternity members that I've come across don't take offense to it.

[fivestarpikapp]

Originally Posted by 33girl

Yeah, but what Psi_U seemed to be saying is that the fraternities will not terminate someone on a national level and therefore he is still bound to his financial obliagations. I don't think that is true.

Originally Posted by 33girl

This isn't the Mafia. If someone wants to formally surrender their membership in an organization they can't be "made" to stay - if they request this several times and the NO refuses to remove them from the rolls, that is the NO's issue.

I Agree. I know many people who are not able to make financial obligation and just move their status with nationals to inactive. What i was trying to state before that I have also seen people who had disaffilated with their (national) fraternity or sorority completely, but usually don't choose to get back into greek life. It would seem logical to say that you are allowed to join another fraternity after dropping your letters, but like i said, the end point is that and individual who drops your letters and joining a different fraternity/sorority is highly disrespectful to Greek Life as a whole, and I wouldn't understand anyone who would even consider taking a person who has done that.


SeerSuckers, good luck with your situation.

[breathesgelatin]

Originally Posted by EE-BO

OTW- well said and thanks for the clarification. I was not aware that there is policy on the books allowing for people to de-brother and pledge elsewhere. I just know that as a matter of practice it is not done.

Originally Posted by TSteven

I doubt the "first" fraternity would want him. I took Psi U MC Vito's post to mean that a member can not simply state "I am no longer an ABC" and be done with it. The IHQ would have to formally (legally) terminate his membership for it to be fact.

Originally Posted by knight_shadow

OK, that makes much more sense.



Are you saying that I/HQs would prefer to keep a member who no longer wants to be affiliated with the organization? My experience has shown that they'd be happy to trim the fat.

RE: this issue, I have some amount of experience with it.

Here is a situation that happened on my campus while I was in college (at a fraternity I frequently hung out at before this whole drama made me realize they were sort of lame):

ABC's charter was revoked for risk management issues over the summer. However, the charges were viewed by many as bogus.

The ABCs did not want to lie down and lose their status as a fraternity. They decided to pursue affiliation with another NIC organization. To clarify, when their charter was revoked, they remained members of ABC - alumni members.

They pursued affiliation with XYZ. In order to become members of XYZ and follow NIC policy, they all resigned their membership with ABC. However, ABC refused to release them as members. It seemed (at the time) that you could somehow RESIGN your membership but not be RELEASED from obligation to ABC (legally). At least that was ABC's argument.

The former members of ABC initiated into XYZ and were chartered as a chapter of XYZ without getting an official release from ABC. Their argument was that ABC's stance that resignation vs. release from obligations would not stand up in court. There was speculation on campus that ABC would sue XYZ, but in fact that never happened. I don't know if was because they didn't have a case, or if it just wasn't worth it to them.

XYZ ultimately failed as an organization on campus when IFC and Student Life both refused to recognize them.

Many of the members of ABC/XYZ joined another fraternity on campus that had previously been quite strong but had suddenly encountered trouble and was in need of members. We'll call this MNO. Supposedly, the ABC/XYZ members were "social members" of MNO only - they lived in the house and paid social fees for parties and food, but were not initiated members of MNO (this was a somewhat common practice at my university). However, I heard rumors that some ABC/XYZ members were ALSO initiated into MNO. Certainly many of them attended some national MNO events sponsored by the fraternity headquarters - and I have pictures to prove it. I have no idea if they pursued a release from XYZ as well, if they were indeed initiated.

So it does happen. And this has happened at other campuses too, with XYZ being the incoming organization, I might add. Of course it's not common, because most NIC orgs, unlike XYZ, have too much self-respect to attempt to pull off something lame like this.

The part that surprises me about the whole thing still is that MNO got dragged into it - but I guess they figured better take the ABC/XYZs than die. Although I don't think MNO will ever be the fraternity it once was, because the ABC/XYZs took over their rush.

[tallgreekalum]

Originally Posted by breathesgelatin

RE: this issue, I have some amount of experience with it.

Here is a situation that happened on my campus while I was in college (at a fraternity I frequently hung out at before this whole drama made me realize they were sort of lame):

ABC's charter was revoked for risk management issues over the summer. However, the charges were viewed by many as bogus.

The ABCs did not want to lie down and lose their status as a fraternity. They decided to pursue affiliation with another NIC organization. To clarify, when their charter was revoked, they remained members of ABC - alumni members.

They pursued affiliation with XYZ. In order to become members of XYZ and follow NIC policy, they all resigned their membership with ABC. However, ABC refused to release them as members. It seemed (at the time) that you could somehow RESIGN your membership but not be RELEASED from obligation to ABC (legally). At least that was ABC's argument.

The former members of ABC initiated into XYZ and were chartered as a chapter of XYZ without getting an official release from ABC. Their argument was that ABC's stance that resignation vs. release from obligations would not stand up in court. There was speculation on campus that ABC would sue XYZ, but in fact that never happened. I don't know if was because they didn't have a case, or if it just wasn't worth it to them.

XYZ ultimately failed as an organization on campus when IFC and Student Life both refused to recognize them.

Many of the members of ABC/XYZ joined another fraternity on campus that had previously been quite strong but had suddenly encountered trouble and was in need of members. We'll call this MNO. Supposedly, the ABC/XYZ members were "social members" of MNO only - they lived in the house and paid social fees for parties and food, but were not initiated members of MNO (this was a somewhat common practice at my university). However, I heard rumors that some ABC/XYZ members were ALSO initiated into MNO. Certainly many of them attended some national MNO events sponsored by the fraternity headquarters - and I have pictures to prove it. I have no idea if they pursued a release from XYZ as well, if they were indeed initiated.

So it does happen. And this has happened at other campuses too, with XYZ being the incoming organization, I might add. Of course it's not common, because most NIC orgs, unlike XYZ, have too much self-respect to attempt to pull off something lame like this.

The part that surprises me about the whole thing still is that MNO got dragged into it - but I guess they figured better take the ABC/XYZs than die. Although I don't think MNO will ever be the fraternity it once was, because the ABC/XYZs took over their rush.

By XYZ you mean ADPhi. Perhaps the self respect issue should be about those fraternities that feel the proper way to run a fraternal organization is to treat it's members like children, and to be more concerned with insurance cost than with chapter quality. Yes, we have affiliated two former chapters of other fraternities and discussed it with another. In each case we felt that the international reasons for pulling the chapter's charter were not legitimate, or had happened a fair amount of time ago and that the issues no longer applied. At W&L the initial letter to the members expelled them, thus we interpreted it to mean that they were free to join another fraternity. We were later overuled by NIC. We acted in good faith.

[breathesgelatin]

Originally Posted by tallgreekalum

By XYZ you mean ADPhi. Perhaps the self respect issue should be about those fraternities that feel the proper way to run a fraternal organization is to treat it's members like children, and to be more concerned with insurance cost than with chapter quality. Yes, we have affiliated two former chapters of other fraternities and discussed it with another. In each case we felt that the international reasons for pulling the chapter's charter were not legitimate, or had happened a fair amount of time ago and that the issues no longer applied. At W&L the initial letter to the members expelled them, thus we interpreted it to mean that they were free to join another fraternity. We were later overuled by NIC. We acted in good faith.

That's nice. As someone fairly close to the situation, I think you somewhat mischaracterize Sigma Phi Epsilon in this scenario as "more concerned with insurance cost than chapter quality." To be honest, I don't totally agree that the charter should have been yanked. Especially given the general goings-on at W&L fraternities, what happened with W&L SPE was fairly minor. However, there were certainly reasons that the charter was yanked, reasons that I believe SigEp could easily cite and would be in line with the risk management standards it publicizes to its members.. Of course, SigEp is back on campus at W&L now, for better or worse, as a Balanced Man chapter. ADPhi, not so much.

You do misrepresent ADPhi's actions at W&L. You are correct that you initiated a chapter where (as I noted in my post) you did legally interpret that the members were free. I do NOT believe that the letter to members expelled them. In fact, I believe it made them alumni while yanking the chapter charter. I can't confirm this 100% but I bet neither can you - neither of us have copies of the letter. However, when you initiated the W&L ADPhi "chapter" you had no house (at a school where all fraternities are housed), no guarantee of campus or IFC recognition, no nothing really.

Let me put it this way: I didn't know anything about ADPhi before you "colonized" at W&L. Now I basically think ADPhi is a joke fraternity that leeches onto other groups' expelled chapters.

You need to have a serious, serious discussion within your fraternity about what this is going to do to your image if you continue this practice.

I'd also like to see your comments on what you think of 70% of the former ADPhi "chapter" then going on to join Phi Kappa Psi.

Thanks.