Pope Joan?

[Rudey]

Originally posted by RACooper
I'm sorry Beryana but that is not what I said - what I said is the Church wouldn't carry out death sentances - they'd judge, sentance, and hand over the condemned; just not actually do the killing themselves... kinda an interesting way to keep their theological hands clean of violating a Commandment huh?

It was all tied into the edicts from the Early Middle Ages prohibiting clergy from taking up arms or taking a life - basically in an effort to A) adhere to/reinforce the spiritual role of and theological teachings of the clergy; B) to firmly establish secular and clerical authorities and realms of power; C) PR issues, it's hard to preach peace and obedience to God when you have cases like Irish monastaries going to war against each other with monks killing/maiming monks just was bad press...

Can you address the study I posted that distinguished between several thousand killed through churches? I'm actually interested in knowing how they got around it.

Oh and don't correct Beryana or she will accuse you of being anti-Catholic and say that Catholics suffered just as much during the Holocaust.

-Rudey

[Rudey]

Originally posted by Beryana
Um, technically the Catholic Church did NOT put anyone to death - though, actually, the death penalty IS allowed under the 10 Commandments according to the Catechism. I will take back my reference to your post, however.

Basically the Inquisition was set up like a judge and jury. The Catholic Church was the jury and the secular tribunal was the judge. Neither actually carries out the sentence (all e's by the way). The judge and jury hear the case, the jury pronounces the verdict and makes a recommendation for sentence but it is actually the judge that determines if that sentence is strict enough.

I have to disagree with your assessment of how all this was about PR and keeping the clergy out of the military - however I need to get to sleep so I can TEACH the Catechism tomorrow.

Sarah

No, no nobody died. Very few people died. Don't explain anything. This isn't on Catholic.com and you are anti-Catholic!

Did you know that Catholics suffered just as much as Cambodians under Pol Pot?

-Rudey
--Ignorance is bliss but I hope you don't TEACH that either.

[Rudey]

Beryana the Ignorant,

if there are not enough Cardinals to have names submitted for execution, perhaps the Church would be willing to submit the names of priests and bishops and whatnot.

It would only be a "Very few" dying - about 2,000 including the pope, all cardinals, some bishops and priests. Perhaps a multiple of 2,000 can be left to die in jails or executed by a secular government with ties to the Church.

I am hoping you will submit this as a petition to the Vatican and have catholic.com provide the positive publicity for your campaign!

-Rudey
--And remember just as many Catholics suffered in Russia under Stalin as any other group!

[RACooper]

Originally posted by Rudey
Can you address the study I posted that distinguished between several thousand killed through churches? I'm actually interested in knowing how they got around it.

Oh and don't correct Beryana or she will accuse you of being anti-Catholic and say that Catholics suffered just as much during the Holocaust.

-Rudey

Me? Anti-Catholic?

As for the study you discussed earlier... umm it doesn't seem to jive with the what Prof. Agostino Borromeo has stated about the Inquisition in the past - I'll try and find something of his talking about numbers, although he has primarily been concerned about comparing Protestant witch burning of early modern era to the activities of the Inquisition of late...

[Rudey]

Originally posted by RACooper
Me? Anti-Catholic?

As for the study you discussed earlier... umm it doesn't seem to jive with the what Prof. Agostino Borromeo has stated about the Inquisition in the past - I'll try and find something of his talking about numbers, although he has primarily been concerned about comparing Protestant witch burning of early modern era to the activities of the Inquisition of late...

I have a quote from the previous Pope on Islam. I agree with it completely but I think you would shit your pants if I posted it so I won't.

-Rudey

[Tom Earp]

Q: was anyone of us there?

A: No.

So while summations are being rampant, We all read books or are passed down Lore about What Went on Then.

Berryanna, there were not two Popes at one time? One In France and One In Itally?

Can You as a person who was not there defenitly say what is true or not?

Words in Books can be expunged can they not?

Illumination is refering to what Monks wrote in Books on paper. This cannot be changed?

I have no animosity against The Roman Catholic Church being from the Anglican Church.

But, Remember, We Spoke English before They/You Did. Our Priests can Marry, and We took Wine as The Blood Of Christ first. Wine goes much better with the Patin.

Adam did Not Wed Eve, He just screwed Her cause She Fed Him The Apple. She plied Him With Her Her BOOBS and other thingy!

No, dont tell Me God Wed Them!

BS. He kicked them out of Eden! Not becausing of screwing aroung but that Damn Apple and Asp!

Dont trust a snake in the grass, I dont!

[Beryana]

Originally posted by Rudey
Beryana the Ignorant,

if there are not enough Cardinals to have names submitted for execution, perhaps the Church would be willing to submit the names of priests and bishops and whatnot.

It would only be a "Very few" dying - about 2,000 including the pope, all cardinals, some bishops and priests. Perhaps a multiple of 2,000 can be left to die in jails or executed by a secular government with ties to the Church.

I am hoping you will submit this as a petition to the Vatican and have catholic.com provide the positive publicity for your campaign!

-Rudey
--And remember just as many Catholics suffered in Russia under Stalin as any other group!

Wow, you are a nasty little beast if someone disagrees with you!

Other sources outside the catholic.com which you are SO against as well!
Pope Fiction by Patrick Madrid - there is an entire chapter devoted to the Inquisition, another on Pope Joan, and another on the fact there were THREE men claiming to be Pope at the same time (which, there are currently a few claiming to be Pope in modern times as well - because they disagree with the calling of the Second Vatican Council).

Triumph by H.W. Crocker III - also an entire chapter on the Inquisition.

oh, and here is the kicker, Deuteronomy 17:2-7

Since I am SO ignorant, please step away from the numbers and explain to me WHY the Inquisition was called (from a historical standpoint ONLY). What was happening in Europe at the time, what was society like, what were acceptable practices, etc. Also, what were the exact laws governing the tribunals, hearings, etc. I am seriously looking for your answers to these questions - as a historian not a theologian.

Once again, I am not saying that the things that were good, HOWEVER since we cannot go back and change history why are you getting your panties all in a bundle? The Pope has already apologized for those wrongs that were done in the past - but if you are dead set against forgiving, moving on and NOT HOLDING A GRUDGE. . . . By holding said grudge against the Catholic Church as you give the appearance, you are in fact anti-Catholic.

Numbers, unfortunately, are not realistic. Compared to 95 million, 2000 IS very few - but on the same token, compared to one 2000 is many. Once again, the deaths were a tragedy, but please refer back to the Deuteronomy reference - the Roman Catholic Church did not call the Inquisition, God did. . . . think on that for a bit.

[Rudey]

Actually no Beryana, I didn't hold a grudge or get nasty.

I didn't even bring it up.

You did. You went and said "Very few" people died. And when you had no clue on the subject, you copied-and-pasted from a website that says anyone who disagrees is a fundamentalist. You completely ignored my questions, facts and sources that were presented.

Good job on the ignorance.

And when shown to be wrong you got emotional and talked about Catholics being persecuted and anyone who disagrees is anti-catholic. Then you finally say the Pope apologized and I'm holding a grudge. I'm glad that the Pope apologized over what you justify to be trivial (thousands of people dying) and over the fact that historically it was OK to massacre those of other religions.

Get real.

-Rudey
--Hey I hear just as many Japanese suffered during the American slave trade as Africans.

Originally posted by Beryana
Wow, you are a nasty little beast if someone disagrees with you!

Other sources outside the catholic.com which you are SO against as well!
Pope Fiction by Patrick Madrid - there is an entire chapter devoted to the Inquisition, another on Pope Joan, and another on the fact there were THREE men claiming to be Pope at the same time (which, there are currently a few claiming to be Pope in modern times as well - because they disagree with the calling of the Second Vatican Council).

Triumph by H.W. Crocker III - also an entire chapter on the Inquisition.

oh, and here is the kicker, Deuteronomy 17:2-7

Since I am SO ignorant, please step away from the numbers and explain to me WHY the Inquisition was called (from a historical standpoint ONLY). What was happening in Europe at the time, what was society like, what were acceptable practices, etc. Also, what were the exact laws governing the tribunals, hearings, etc. I am seriously looking for your answers to these questions - as a historian not a theologian.

Once again, I am not saying that the things that were good, HOWEVER since we cannot go back and change history why are you getting your panties all in a bundle? The Pope has already apologized for those wrongs that were done in the past - but if you are dead set against forgiving, moving on and NOT HOLDING A GRUDGE. . . . By holding said grudge against the Catholic Church as you give the appearance, you are in fact anti-Catholic.

Numbers, unfortunately, are not realistic. Compared to 95 million, 2000 IS very few - but on the same token, compared to one 2000 is many. Once again, the deaths were a tragedy, but please refer back to the Deuteronomy reference - the Roman Catholic Church did not call the Inquisition, God did. . . . think on that for a bit.

[Beryana]

Originally posted by Rudey
Actually no Beryana, I didn't hold a grudge or get nasty.

I didn't even bring it up.

You did. You went and said "Very few" people died. And when you had no clue on the subject, you copied-and-pasted from a website that says anyone who disagrees is a fundamentalist. You completely ignored my questions, facts and sources that were presented.

Good job on the ignorance.

And when shown to be wrong you got emotional and talked about Catholics being persecuted and anyone who disagrees is anti-catholic. Then you finally say the Pope apologized and I'm holding a grudge. I'm glad that the Pope apologized over what you justify to be trivial (thousands of people dying) and over the fact that historically it was OK to massacre those of other religions.

Get real.

-Rudey
--Hey I hear just as many Japanese suffered during the American slave trade as Africans.

You do realize that this is actually getting rather funny (and I still would like an answer to my questions asked of you).

Here are some more questions - and I would really like answers to: Do you know the difference between Fundamentalist and fundamentalist (it's like the difference between Tradition and tradition, Catholic and catholic, Church and church, etc)? Please also explain who a Fundamentalist is - not what you think that I think it means but who a Fundamentalist actually is.

I find it rather amusing that you do not know anything about me (my background, upbringing, education, etc) other than I am a Catholic and yet you label me ignorant and a bigot. Along those lines, you are a hypocrit. You spout off numbers from one source and proclaim that to be the be-all-end-all on the subject (I have given you FOUR sources of further information - and I will GLADLY find you more). At the same time you flatly refuse to acknowledge there is other information out there - and actually belittle the source of that information as well as the presenter.

Very amusing! Rudey, you are definitely a source of entertainment!

[Rudey]

You are beyond ignorant so I will break it down for you:

1) Beryana says “Very few” people were killed during the inquisition. At this point, the victims’ suffering is made to look small.

2) Rudey asks Beryana to define “Very few”

3) Beryana is unable to define it because she does not know and does a copy-and-paste job from a website that doesn’t answer it. Additionally this website offers its slant and bias (Catholic.com). The website does acknowledge the church is human and makes mistakes so perhaps the info provided by Beryana is a mistake by the author and Beryana herself. Additionally she constantly deflects attention off herself by saying she does not know Canon law.

4) Rudey provides actual estimates showing the low end (sponsored by the Church) of massacres to be several thousand. This number does not include those killed by secular friends of the church or those that died awaiting trial – it surely doesn’t include those that were tortured (one method being a hot metal cone peeling the flesh off their bodies). Scholars estimate that several hundred thousand were killed as a result of the inquisitions (see the many, many other sources). If this minimal number is “Very few” and the church really has done nothing, then they can provide the names of that many Catholics (including the Pope, Cardinals, Bishops, and a priest or two). Beryana refuses to address the point and says there aren’t that many Cardinals. Surely if the numbers that died were "Very few" then any tragedy afterwards such as 9/11 is really insignificant to Beryana. Several hundred thousand dying is not much, several hundred thousand dying in a population that is proportional much smaller again is "Very few". Even if several thousand died, again to Beryana this is insignificant.

5) Beryana calls anyone that proves her wrong to be anti-Catholic. At this point, she says that Catholics have suffered as well. Perhaps this is an indication that “Very few” dying was really not so, and there was massive suffering. Why else would she say Catholics suffered? In the same vein, Beryana says Catholics suffered under Hitler. The comparison of 6 million Jews being systematically slaughtered like barn animals to anything is ridiculous, but Beryana is ignorant to this. Additionally, Beryana made a mistake in bringing up the Church during the Holocaust given conclusions reached about the Pope at that time not doing enough to save Jews while ordering that Jewish children being hidden by Catholics not to be returned to their parents, as well as Catholics urging the pope to stop immigration of Jews to South America.

6) Beryana now indicates that in those times it was OK to kill people of other religions. Does this disagree with the fact that “Very few” suffered? She also says the Pope apologized for these acts. Again, does this disagree with the fact that “Very few” died? How can Beryana somehow provide excuses and justifications for murder while still distancing the Church from it by saying the Pope apologized? She can’t. It defies logic.

7) Beryana now says that Rudey has his panties in a bunch because he has chosen to not forget. Of course Rudey responded to Beryana’s pure lies, so perhaps Beryana has her panties in a bunch. Maybe. And according to Beryana, having your panties in a bunch indicates you are anti-Catholic; hence, Beryana is now anti-Catholic by her own logic.

8) Beryana is unable to respond. She again avoids the topic and asks Rudey irrelevant questions. She claims Rudey only provides one source. Rudey has provided many – none from the biased Catholic.com. Beryana has proven without a doubt her ignorance is immeasurable as Rudey has to detail it in outlined format for her. Beryana is sad.

-Rudey
--Beryana is proven ignorant and having spread lies which she is unable to back up since she is not expert in canon law and unable to provide numbers defining "Very few"

Originally posted by Beryana
You do realize that this is actually getting rather funny (and I still would like an answer to my questions asked of you).

Here are some more questions - and I would really like answers to: Do you know the difference between Fundamentalist and fundamentalist (it's like the difference between Tradition and tradition, Catholic and catholic, Church and church, etc)? Please also explain who a Fundamentalist is - not what you think that I think it means but who a Fundamentalist actually is.

I find it rather amusing that you do not know anything about me (my background, upbringing, education, etc) other than I am a Catholic and yet you label me ignorant and a bigot. Along those lines, you are a hypocrit. You spout off numbers from one source and proclaim that to be the be-all-end-all on the subject (I have given you FOUR sources of further information - and I will GLADLY find you more). At the same time you flatly refuse to acknowledge there is other information out there - and actually belittle the source of that information as well as the presenter.

Very amusing! Rudey, you are definitely a source of entertainment!

[Beryana]

Originally posted by Rudey
You are beyond ignorant so I will break it down for you:
[/B]

I am SO getting a laugh out of this. A liar, bigot, AND ignorant (BEYONG ignorant even - but to ask a question about that would get to philosophical. . .)! Golly, my life is complete - if only I were able to refer to myself in third person for the same length of time! And to be able to use present to refer to past events - wow! Such enlightenment I shall never hope to attain!

I actually HAVE answered your question about 'very few' - you have just chosen to ignore it and continue to harp. Mind you that is a catch-22 since without that point being ingored I would not be so completely amused.

Am I hypocritical for requesting answers to questions that I have asked when I have alledgedly ignored questions asked of me - or am I just rhetorical?

[Rudey]

Originally posted by Beryana
I am SO getting a laugh out of this. A liar, bigot, AND ignorant (BEYONG ignorant even - but to ask a question about that would get to philosophical. . .)! Golly, my life is complete - if only I were able to refer to myself in third person for the same length of time! And to be able to use present to refer to past events - wow! Such enlightenment I shall never hope to attain!

I actually HAVE answered your question about 'very few' - you have just chosen to ignore it and continue to harp. Mind you that is a catch-22 since without that point being ingored I would not be so completely amused.

Am I hypocritical for requesting answers to questions that I have asked when I have alledgedly ignored questions asked of me - or am I just rhetorical?

Please repeat and tell me what "very few" means in numbers.

You don't know canon law and don't know the numbers so you copy-and-paste from websites which provide no answers.

Hey Beryana, where is the word bigot used? I just want a refresher.

Keep laughing ignorant one. I outlined all the details of our conversation for you.

-Rudey
--Hey I heard when Mao starved several million people, just as many Catholics suffered in Vatican city.

[Beryana]

Originally posted by Rudey
Please repeat and tell me what "very few" means in numbers.

You don't know canon law and don't know the numbers so you copy-and-paste from websites which provide no answers.

Hey Beryana, where is the word bigot used? I just want a refresher.

Keep laughing ignorant one. I outlined all the details of our conversation for you.

-Rudey
--Hey I heard when Mao starved several million people, just as many Catholics suffered in Vatican city.

Since I am not allowed to cut and paste from websites I am not even allowed to quote myself. I would not mind having a copy of your souces of information so that I can attempt to climb out of the bowels of ignorance (or, if I am beyond ignorance does that mean this information would allow me to climb INTO the bowels of ignorance on my path to enlightenment?) Seriously, I would like a copy of your information source to add to my Church/European history library.

I actually found your 'outline' very amusing (those were bullet-point 'summaries', by the way, not an outline). Since you are OBVIOUSLY a Canon Lawyer, Roman Catholic Church Historian, Catholic Theologian, and all-knowing does it really matter what I know, think, believe, etc?

[Rudey]

Originally posted by Beryana
Since I am not allowed to cut and paste from websites I am not even allowed to quote myself. I would not mind having a copy of your souces of information so that I can attempt to climb out of the bowels of ignorance (or, if I am beyond ignorance does that mean this information would allow me to climb INTO the bowels of ignorance on my path to enlightenment?) Seriously, I would like a copy of your information source to add to my Church/European history library.

I actually found your 'outline' very amusing (those were bullet-point 'summaries', by the way, not an outline). Since you are OBVIOUSLY a Canon Lawyer, Roman Catholic Church Historian, Catholic Theologian, and all-knowing does it really matter what I know, think, believe, etc?

Great way to avoid answering.

In summation, the inquisition was an awful massacre where many people died. We hope the Church will never be involved in such a tragedy again.

-Rudey

[Beryana]

Originally posted by Rudey
Great way to avoid answering.

In summation, the inquisition was an awful massacre where many people died. We hope the Church will never be involved in such a tragedy again.

-Rudey

One of the first things you have said that makes sense - despite it needing editing. Too bad your tangent on the Inquisitions has absolutely nothing to do with the topic of this thread!

with regards to avoiding answering - I picked up pointers from you.