Brainy women have trouble finding men

[Taualumna]

Re: science/math being from a male perspective

Many schools are now experimenting with single sex classes at the middle school level and have found that girls' math and science scores have gone up, as have boys' language scores. I can sort of understand this. In elementary school in the 80s and early 90s, the most popular series books were written for girls!

What I find interesting is this: In the past, a young woman wasn't considered "accomplished" unless she knew how to play the piano. Yet, successful composers were almost all men (The only pre 20th century woman composer I can think of is Clara Schumann). Perhaps it's the whole idea that ladies are supposed to entertain in the drawing room/parlour rather than in a concert hall.

[sugar and spice]

Originally posted by Taualumna

What I find interesting is this: In the past, a young woman wasn't considered "accomplished" unless she knew how to play the piano. Yet, successful composers were almost all men (The only pre 20th century woman composer I can think of is Clara Schumann). Perhaps it's the whole idea that ladies are supposed to entertain in the drawing room/parlour rather than in a concert hall.

Ladies were expected to be accomplished, not proficient. If you read Jane Austen, for example, you'll realize that addition to playing a little piano, young women were expected to be able to sing a little, speak a little French, speak a little Italian, draw a little, etc. They were not expected (or in many cases even allowed) to become masters of one craft, but to become decent at many.

[Taualumna]

Originally posted by sugar and spice
Ladies were expected to be accomplished, not proficient. If you read Jane Austen, for example, you'll realize that addition to playing a little piano, young women were expected to be able to sing a little, speak a little French, speak a little Italian, draw a little, etc. They were not expected (or in many cases even allowed) to become masters of one craft, but to become decent at many.

If you have very tiny hands, and can barely reach an octave, it makes it harder to even become "proficient" in piano playing. In the 19th century, being able to play the equivlent of "big note piano" does not make one "proficient".

[AGDee]

I somehow missed the whole math/science bias all through school. At least half (if not more) of the students in my AP math and science classes were girls all through junior high and high school. Of the top 10 of my class of 700+, 7 of the 10 were girls. In college, my Anatomy, Physiology and Neuroanatomy classes were almost all women (because we were Occupational Therapy majors primarily, but they were also the pre-med classes).

I work for a Biostatistics department and the PhD statisticians are: 3 female, 3 male. Our masters level statisticians are all female. BIO STATISTICIANS... you don't get more math/science than that!

And gee, I'm one of the network "guys" now (blink). How did that happen?

My mom was a medical technologist. Most medical technologists are women. They work in a lab with... math and science. Most nurses are women.. math and science. Dieticians.. math and science. Physical Therapists... math and science. Those are all traditionally female occupations.

I believe some people experienced this and I know there is research that shows it to be true as young as elementary school, but I sure didn't experience it at all. Someone forgot to tell me that I wasn't supposed to be good in math and science!

I will admit that the female statisticians with whom I work do not care a lick about their clothes, hair style, make up, etc. but that's true of the male statisticians too. Statisticians simply don't give a darn about those things. They are not people focused and don't care what others think of them. They're very cool, down to earth people (except when their SAS server is down, then they get edgy). Also, their minds work differently than everybody elses!

Dee

ETA: The female statisticians are all married to really brainy men too! AND, the two single/never been married statisticians are MEN (very geeky and socially inept men).

[Taualumna]

"Hard" sciences still attract relatively few women. Teachers' Preservice ("teachers' college") applications in Ontario have for several years encouraged women to apply to teach high school physics (if you want to teach middle school or high school, you have to declare a "teachable" when you apply) because physics (more so than math) seem to have fewer girls than boys. There are also not too many women who teach the subject. Of course, they also encourage guys to apply for elementary school teaching. I'm pretty sure fewer men teach elementary school than women teach science and math.

[AKA_Monet]

Originally posted by EPTriSigma
Amen girls. Do you remeber the one talking barbie that said something along the lines of, "Math is tough". That definitly sent the wrong message to young girls.

Our sorority started a community service project in which we hang out with 5th grade girl scouts once a month for a few hours. We do the typical arts and crafts type stuff but we also have time devoted to math and science. I think it is absolutly essential to build a strong math and science foundation early on.

I to have read a lot revolving around the area of women and science and you are right on key. While I am only and undergrad, I am one of few females in my program. What also has become interesting to me, is the ratio of women who start out with the intention of a math or science degree to those who actually complete their degrees.

I give you a lot of credit for achieving your Ph.D.. It is encouraging to hear from women who have gone on to do it. I would love to obtain mine someday.

When you are ready to look at grad schools, lemme know... It gets worse the higher you go... Because most of your compatriots get married with kids... Just go to the Dating and Relationships forum and see the laments of women who feel they will NEVER get married...

And while you are in grad school, you cannot begin to maintain a serious relationship because it interferes with your academic achievement and abilities to do your work, period. Especially in math and science graduate work...

And do get your degree before you have a family, then wait until you finish your post-doctoral position... If you go to either Newsweek or Time magazine a few years ago, they explain what is so difficult about women being in science and it having to maintain a family...

But I hope you do go and get the highest degree you can obtain in your field. Good luck.

[James]

You know. Sometimes I wonder if the definition of brainy makes things a little confusing.

In studies of gifted people, they are usually giften in everything including social situations. Gifted being in terms of native aptitude versus studying hard, working hard, or being credentialed.

In facted gifted people gneerally fail of their full potential because they get caught up in the social aspects of life.

I think that when we are thinking of brainy, we tend to think in terms of credentials, and maybe over achieving. In which case it still comes down to social skills.

If you have good social skills, it doesn't matter what other things are going on.

The proverbial audio-visual kid often has less native aptitude than a popular bright kid that lazed his way through school because he/she didn't need to study. Even though the popular bright kid may not have had as good a GPA.

[sugar and spice]

Originally posted by James

In facted gifted people gneerally fail of their full potential because they get caught up in the social aspects of life.

Haha, so that explains my problem.

But no -- although I have no studies to back this up, I have noticed that smart women WITH good social skills don't fare as well romantically as smart men with good social skills. I think that's what the study is getting at. But it needs to be studied more in-depth to make any sort of conclusion.

[trojangal]

Much of this seems so true. Most of us dated around trying to find the "perfect" guy but almost all of us were in honors/high level academic programs. I remember talking with one my best buds and asked him what the deal was. He flat out told us one day that a lot of the guys we liked were too intimidated by smart women. We sort of laughed it off, but that always stuck with a few of us.

It's interesting to note that those of us in our group who are married have picked really smart brainy men as well. I'm married to a music instructor who also studied respiratory therapy, my best friend is married to a guy who is one of the top librarians in our city and also teaches at one of the colleges, one is married to a computer programmer, and the last is an incredible writer. The ones that aren't married tend to hang out with brainy men.

[AKA_Monet]

Originally posted by AGDee
I somehow missed the whole math/science bias all through school. At least half (if not more) of the students in my AP math and science classes were girls all through junior high and high school. Of the top 10 of my class of 700+, 7 of the 10 were girls. In college, my Anatomy, Physiology and Neuroanatomy classes were almost all women (because we were Occupational Therapy majors primarily, but they were also the pre-med classes).

I work for a Biostatistics department and the PhD statisticians are: 3 female, 3 male. Our masters level statisticians are all female. BIO STATISTICIANS... you don't get more math/science than that!

And gee, I'm one of the network "guys" now (blink). How did that happen?

My mom was a medical technologist. Most medical technologists are women. They work in a lab with... math and science. Most nurses are women.. math and science. Dieticians.. math and science. Physical Therapists... math and science. Those are all traditionally female occupations.

I believe some people experienced this and I know there is research that shows it to be true as young as elementary school, but I sure didn't experience it at all. Someone forgot to tell me that I wasn't supposed to be good in math and science!

I will admit that the female statisticians with whom I work do not care a lick about their clothes, hair style, make up, etc. but that's true of the male statisticians too. Statisticians simply don't give a darn about those things. They are not people focused and don't care what others think of them. They're very cool, down to earth people (except when their SAS server is down, then they get edgy). Also, their minds work differently than everybody elses!

Dee

ETA: The female statisticians are all married to really brainy men too! AND, the two single/never been married statisticians are MEN (very geeky and socially inept men).

Dee--

So glad that you had little issues throughout your pursuit of your educational goals. To me, it's awesome to see women excel in once male-dominated positions.

Biostats, huh?.. I need help with my ANOVA calculations for my experiments... You think you can help me with that? No, I'm serious... I suck at sadistics--no, I mean, statistics...

[AKA_Monet]

Originally posted by James
You know. Sometimes I wonder if the definition of brainy makes things a little confusing.

In studies of gifted people, they are usually giften in everything including social situations. Gifted being in terms of native aptitude versus studying hard, working hard, or being credentialed.

In facted gifted people gneerally fail of their full potential because they get caught up in the social aspects of life.

I think that when we are thinking of brainy, we tend to think in terms of credentials, and maybe over achieving. In which case it still comes down to social skills.

If you have good social skills, it doesn't matter what other things are going on.

The proverbial audio-visual kid often has less native aptitude than a popular bright kid that lazed his way through school because he/she didn't need to study. Even though the popular bright kid may not have had as good a GPA.

James--

I am so confused by your comments above... Maybe I'm not that brainy or gifted, I guess...

But I do know that many nerdy folks have to do those kinds of things as a survival tactic in order to be successful in their chosen fields.

I mean, I work with MD's everywhere. The you really want a hard working, brain or cardiac surgeon who studied his or her stuff--i.e. went nerdy on you--wouldn't you? I could care less about the eccentrisities of a gifted, talented scientist or doctor if my life was on the line... I really wouldn't want to hold a personable conversation with that him or her... But that's just me...

However, if I was talking to a philosopher, sociologist, or religious scholar which discussion was the name of the game... Well... Then, that's what they do...

But hard scientists and even so far as psychology are very wound up with provable, experimentation with Eigan values and T-scores.. I mean, I am always determining the significance of my data when I am testing the efficacy of my knockout/transgenic mice I make... Because of one off value I might have, could be the whole mistake made in forming drugs that cause serious side effects, like Vioxx... Folks just don't be checkin' how well their values are...

And that is Bioethics 101...

[starang21]

i like a smart, educated woman. i also like a strong, tough woman who can talk shit......that's kind of a turn on. i had one of those, it lead to a lot of butting of heads....but i wouldn't have it any other way.

[James]

I mean nerdy differently. Nerdy would be someone that is functioning beyond what is considered normal for his or her level of aptitude.

I have seen write ups that say many Asian populations function as if they are 20 points of IQ higher academically than they are because they study drastically more hours. It a cultural thing.

There are people that literally cruise through information with minor effort.

So someone that is considered gifted is usually good at anything they try and learn. Its a general aptitude. And it applies to social skills also.

Someone that is nerdy, tends to be overachieving ina more limited range of directions based upon a lot of effort.

I'm generalizing of course

As far as which kind of proffessional I would want. In a perfect world I would want a gifted person that had an obsession with her or her chosen discipline.

Originally posted by AKA_Monet
James--

I am so confused by your comments above... Maybe I'm not that brainy or gifted, I guess...

But I do know that many nerdy folks have to do those kinds of things as a survival tactic in order to be successful in their chosen fields.

I mean, I work with MD's everywhere. The you really want a hard working, brain or cardiac surgeon who studied his or her stuff--i.e. went nerdy on you--wouldn't you? I could care less about the eccentrisities of a gifted, talented scientist or doctor if my life was on the line... I really wouldn't want to hold a personable conversation with that him or her... But that's just me...

However, if I was talking to a philosopher, sociologist, or religious scholar which discussion was the name of the game... Well... Then, that's what they do...

But hard scientists and even so far as psychology are very wound up with provable, experimentation with Eigan values and T-scores.. I mean, I am always determining the significance of my data when I am testing the efficacy of my knockout/transgenic mice I make... Because of one off value I might have, could be the whole mistake made in forming drugs that cause serious side effects, like Vioxx... Folks just don't be checkin' how

well their values are...

And that is Bioethics 101...

[AKA_Monet]

Originally posted by James
I mean nerdy differently. Nerdy would be someone that is functioning beyond what is considered normal for his or her level of aptitude.

I have seen write ups that say many Asian populations function as if they are 20 points of IQ higher academically than they are because they study drastically more hours. It a cultural thing.

There are people that literally cruise through information with minor effort.

So someone that is considered gifted is usually good at anything they try and learn. Its a general aptitude. And it applies to social skills also.

Someone that is nerdy, tends to be overachieving ina more limited range of directions based upon a lot of effort.

I'm generalizing of course

As far as which kind of proffessional I would want. In a perfect world I would want a gifted person that had an obsession with her or her chosen discipline.

I dunno about that, James... I think I have a decent aptitude. I am no way a brainiac. But, I did have to learn some wild stuff during my education to be a molecular biologist...

I kinna understand that what you are saying that a "job is a job" and should not define how "high" you will go in life as being "smart" or not???

Are you saying that a nerd can learn social skills, if he or she wanted to??? Not saying they even care to learn it or want to...

Well, I guess, I think I'm cool. But, I had to accept that I'm a "space cadet" as someone said when I was a freshman in college... Mind you, my high school days--let's just say when I started college, I had to stop binge drinking... I graduated mid-80's from high school--Reaganomics era child...

[AGDee]

Originally posted by AKA_Monet
Dee--

So glad that you had little issues throughout your pursuit of your educational goals. To me, it's awesome to see women excel in once male-dominated positions.

Biostats, huh?.. I need help with my ANOVA calculations for my experiments... You think you can help me with that? No, I'm serious... I suck at sadistics--no, I mean, statistics...

LOL.. I only fix their computers. Sometimes at lunch, they start talking that way and I just stare blankly out the window! I did have a couple stats classes when I was working on a masters in clinical psych, but it was a lonnnnnnng time ago!