Princeton's Attitude

[Janerz222]

In a nutshell:

Eating clubs are unique to P'ton. They are housed clubs (only the officers live in) where upperclassmen eat meals, have parties, study, hang out, etc. All are now co-ed, some are selective (the rush process is called bicker, and you only bicker one club), the others are by lottery. Members typically join early in the spring of your sophomore year (though a few join later), and are a full member junior and senior years.

[Diamond Delta]

Originally posted by 33girl
adpiucf, I mean this in the nicest of ways, but you had a real Muffy Tepperman moment there

I had forgotten the GLOs there were not officially recognized. Let's look at it this way - what gives the admin the right to tell freshmen to do something (and use money and time to do so) that isn't officially part of the university? I mean, what if they said "don't get a library card at the town of Princeton library" or "don't join the local chapter of the KKK/Jews for Jesus/whatever"? How about if they advised the students on which local churches they should or should not worship at?

If they want to keep denying Greek life's impact, they're just going to look dumber and dumber. I'm not in favor of first semester rush either, but as far as this situation, if they don't get anything for doing it, why would they?

I didn't think most fraternities and sororities would even set up a chapter at a university that didn't allow those groups? How do you even begin to have grade minimums or even student membership requirements if the organization is not even, technically, a student organization? Hmmm, very interesting. What about panhellenic. Can they still froce two or more sororities to have a panhellenic system if they are not even recognized by the school? And, yes, aren;t the eating clubs the same thing in a way? Why are those OK? Is it just because of the traditions?

[PhiPsiRuss]

Originally posted by Diamond Delta
How do you even begin to have grade minimums or even student membership requirements if the organization is not even, technically, a student organization?

Who cares about that stuff when the school is Princeton? Most of the students have good grades, and most of the students are involved in other student activities.

"Student membership requirements?" Princeton students are not going to rush students from the local community college. The average Princeton student in the bottom 25% of that school will have a more successful profesional life than a student on the top 10% of a 4th tier school. These kids are smart and dynamic.

[Janerz222]

Diamond Delta,

A few points, based solely on my experience at Princeton (not sure how applicable they are to other campuses):

-as soon as the second NPC group was established (Pi Beta Phi), we set up a college Panhellenic. With a lot of guidance from Theta's and Pi Phi's local advisers, Pi Phi's based chapter consultant (who became a very good friend of mine!), and both orgs' international officers and NPC delegates, we did it all on our own. (I was the founding Panhel president, so a lot of it is near-and-dear to my heart.) The NPC delegations and NPC extension committee are very cooperative and on top of such situations. It's not happening in a vacuum. NPC is a phenomenal organization, and they regional college panhellenic advisers to help.

-situations like this require a lot of work on the part of local alumnae advisers and the collegians. We had no Greek adviser, obviously, so we really were creating and running the Panhellenic and all aspects of it ourselves. The best, most useful leadership training (trial by fire) experience of my life (and one I didn't seek out or initially want!). None of us had heard the word Panhellenic until my junior year!

-As an alumna, I've had some peripheral involvement with Santa Clara - their Greek system is relatively-recently "unrecognized". They have a FABULOUS volunteer alumna Panhellenic adviser. I wish I could remember which NPC she's an alumna of (not one of the 3 with chapters currently at Santa Clara) because she has done a tremendous job, just because it was there to be done and she wanted to help.

-grades, etc, were submitted voluntarily by our members. A small downside is that we really weren't included in some Theta-wide awards for, say, being above All-Sorority-Average or things like that, since they just didn't exist. I am unaware of any sharing/comparing of GPAs between groups. It just wasn't an issue to anybody. (I also know, for instance, that Stanford forbids its GLOs from getting grades, so they're in the same boat.)

-Hazing, etc. is just monitored by the organizations' advisers, consultants, and HQs.

I will say that at the time, when we were the only NPC sorority on campus (I recall that there were 1-2 NPHCs at the time), not being recognized did result in many hurdles for us as we tried to grow: we had no access to student lists, addresses, etc.; prospective students were told that there were no fraternities/sororities at Princeton; we were not allowed to post things on campus bulletin boards; we had to rent any on-campus facility we wanted to use for meetings or events; we held chapter meetings in rented classrooms and initiations and other ritual events in alumnae homes and/or church basements; and others. (I didn't even know there was a Theta chapter there until spring of my freshman year, and I was a legacy!) However, the upside (which in hindsight was considerable) was that the university had no say in what we did (other than as individual students--we were of course bound by student conduct regulations) and could not put extra restrictions/requirements on us beyond Theta's requirements. Because there was a screaming need for what we offered at Princeton, we grew and grew, Pi Phi flourished, and the system grew from there.

Having said all that, being unrecognized not an ideal situation. But, if the inter/national organization is committed to it, and you have some good local advisers, it can be worth it!

Thank for indulging my multiple trips down Memory Lane. . .

[blueGBI]

What GLOs are at Princeton?


(almost went to Penn, another ivy, but didn't because she needed to get away from home)

Originally posted by Munchkin03
Not always true. My bonds to Brown are stronger (as I've learned recently in the face of tragedy) than my Alpha Chi Omega bonds were, are, and ever will be.

If my school were to disband Greek Life, I wouldn't feel that sad. It didn't make my college experience.

Ditto.

I love my Fraternity and what she stands for and will be a loyal member for life.

But I've been bleeding the Hawai`i Green & White much, much longer. AGD didn't define my college experience...my friends (both Greek and non -- and I had more non Friends), my profs, my co-workers, the student union cafeteria guys, and the bartender/stir fry cooks at Manoa Gardens did.

[DolphinChicaDDD]

Originally posted by Tom Earp
Maybe they ought to call Princeton Snob U?

Those of us poor shmucks at Jersey state schools already do; love my sisters in that chapter, but yeah, uuuh, stockton is different then princeton.

As for sororites (well, NPC) I belive: KKG, KAT, DDD, Pi Phi. Someone feel free to correct if I'm wrong.

[33girl]

Originally posted by Munchkin03
If my school were to disband Greek Life, I wouldn't feel that sad. It didn't make my college experience.

I'd be sad if ANY school decided to disband Greek life - simply because it takes away a great opportunity from the students.

I do understand what you're trying to say, but it just comes across like you don't give a crap and that you got nothing from your sorority membership. We've had several chapters on my campus close since I've graduated and even those people who you'd think couldn't care less were sad about it.

[breathesgelatin]

Originally posted by Tom Earp
Maybe they ought to call Princeton Snob U?

Naaaaaah, that's Washington and Lee.

[exlurker]

Just as a supplement to janer22's information about the eating clubs, I thought I'd mention that the September 20, 2004 Daily Princetonian has two -- that's right, two -- stories about the clubs:

http://www.dailyprincetonian.com/arc...ws/10768.shtml

http://www.dailyprincetonian.com/arc...ws/10764.shtml

Of possible interest in light of concerns about the attitude of the administration toward Greek organizations is a quote from a club member about a recent activity of most of the clubs: "this isn't costing us anything. [Princeton President] Shirley Tilghman is footing the bill."

[PhiPsiRuss]

Originally posted by Diamond Delta
Point taken about Princeton. However, there are other sorority and fraternity chapters at schools not as elite as Princeton and they too have no University recognition. I was really aiming my question at the general idea of it all, not specifically the Princeton situation. But I can see why you posted what you did. Valid points about this specific instance.

But what about the other schools with these kinds of chapters. Anyone know how they handle it? What is their nationals take on it and how do they help to enforce the policies like student membership, grades, hazing, panhellenic requirements etc.?

I would look at two scenarios. There is one where a greek system exists, and then loses recognition. Most GLOs will maintain chapters at these schools, unless the climate and/or chapter dramatically deteriorates.

Then there are schools that prohibit GLOs, have none, and then the interest to start a system emerges. In this scenario we have schools like Amherst, Brandeis, Georgetown, Harvard, and Princeton that now have greek systems. All of these schools, except for Brandeis, had greek systems at one time. Of these schools, all had banned social GLOs and had none before GLOs began to reemerge. There has also been the possible emergence of a single Delta Psi chapter at Williams, as well as unsuccessful colonization efforts at Fordham, Notre Dame and (maybe) West Point over the last 15 years. GLOs are willing to roll the dice on these schools because they are prestigious. These schools produce far more alumni who pad "famous alumni" lists. When alumni from top tier schools get involved with their GLOs at the national level, they are (on average) more effective than other leaders from lesser schools. This makes an entire GLO better.

So, in the case where an underground greek system is emerging, the caliber of the school is evaluated. Janerz222 can let us know if her chapter provided Theta with grades, but I wouldn't be surprised if Theta looked the other way.

As far as other schools go, my fraternity currently has our Massachusetts Beta chapter at Brandeis. They are a great bunch of guys. Brandeis University's charter prohibits fraternities. The greek system is about 15 years old. We've been chartered there for 11 years. Aside from the ability to check grades and a mutually supportive relationship with the school, there is little difference between being chartered at Brandeis or Brown.

Student membership requirements are not an issue at this caliber of schools. The students are extremely busy with other activities on campus, as well as studying. Many of the students at these schools live their collegiate lives on campus, and don't have the time to make the effort to associate with students at other schools. These schools also have few, if any, part time students.

GPA is just not a big issue at these types of schools. The students who go there already have great time management skills. Some lose their focus and fail out, but not at the same rate of lesser schools. I don't know what our Brandeis chapter's GPA is. It could be 0.8. I do know that most of their brothers go onto grad school, so they must be doing something right in the classroom.

With regard to risk management issues, they face similar issues that chapters at other elite schools face. Risk management issues are not enforceable at Brandeis, except that the school likes to let the Waltham police know where partys will be. Schools like Brown, Columbia, Cornell, Penn, Stanford, Swarthmore, and W&L (and others) basically look the other way. Having greek system recognition at elite private schools is no guarantee for risk management compliance. These schools have alumni who make tons of money, donate tons of money, and like to have a few beers when they visit campus. Hazing at these schools, when it occurs, is not questioned by the administrations if specific incidents are not known.

It comes down to a basic cost/benefit analysis. Its worth chartering at Princeton and other top tier schools.

[TSteven]

Originally posted by PhiPsiRuss
...as well as unsuccessful colonization efforts at Fordham, Notre Dame and (maybe) West Point over the last 15 years.

Would you happen to know what groups tried to colonize at these schools?

Frankly, I would be quite surprised - in a good way mind you - if any of the service academies were to allow GLOs. Not so much Notre Dame or Fordham.

[breathesgelatin]

Originally posted by PhiPsiRuss
With regard to risk management issues, they face similar issues that chapters at other elite schools face. Risk management issues are not enforceable at Brandeis, except that the school likes to let the Waltham police know where partys will be. Schools like Brown, Columbia, Cornell, Penn, Stanford, Swarthmore, and W&L (and others) basically look the other way. Having greek system recognition at elite private schools is no guarantee for risk management compliance. These schools have alumni who make tons of money, donate tons of money, and like to have a few beers when they visit campus. Hazing at these schools, when it occurs, is not questioned by the administrations if specific incidents are not known.

Wow--you just summed up W&L. Good job, Russ. I'm actually impressed because very few people seem able to understand the situation here.

[33girl]

Originally posted by PhiPsiRuss
So, in the case where an underground greek system is emerging, the caliber of the school is evaluated. Janerz222 can let us know if her chapter provided Theta with grades, but I wouldn't be surprised if Theta looked the other way.

Way to show support of your fellow Greeks - by accusing them of throwing out their chapter standards.

And as far as alums from top tier schools being more effective leaders on a national level and making the GLO "better" - well, we just saw an alum from a top tier school basically saying she wouldn't give a shit if her school's whole system croaked. Would you pick her for an alum position over someone who went to Western Illinois simply because she went to Brown? (Munchkin, this is not picking on you - just using a very apropos example) Maybe this is true of fraternities, but it's not true of sororities.

[Munchkin03]

Well, chances are the Ivy alum won't go out for a major alum position.