Should the Draft be reinstated?

[GeekyPenguin]

Originally posted by Tom Earp
Just how many of you have ever worn A Uniform or carried A Weapon? I venture to say damn few!

Well, I went to Catholic school, and I've gone shooting...

I'm firmly opposed to the draft. We shouldn't start wars we don't have the resources to fight. What kind of army would be fighting if it was full of men who didn't want to be there?

[sugar and spice]

Originally posted by Rudey
Uhm the people that disagree with this war would more than likely disagree with any war that the US has been in.

Also many supporters of the draft are against the war in Iraq because they think that it creates equality since then the sons of even the advocates of the war will serve.

Your first point could be proved wrong simply by looking at all the army Veterans out there who were against this war. At least in my city they were some of the first and most vocal protesters against it. There were a lot of men and women who served proudly in WWII, Korea and even Vietnam who were against this one.

And as for the second, I know plenty of people -- granted a lot of them are pretty young and don't know all that much yet -- who were against this war and didn't have a clue about the military's composition and what issues there are with it. And I'm sure some of them wouldn't have cared if they had.

There were a lot of reasons why people were against this war, not just some generic sense of hippie liberal pacifism. There were a lot of people who would have gladly supported it if it had been carried out differently or a different/better case had been made for it. And it was, for the most part, those people, not the hippie pacifists, who were the ones warning that going to Iraq was stretch our army too thin.

And I don't think that any of us are naive enough to believe that the draft is going to create equality. Instead of who has to serve in the army in order to get money for college and who gets their Daddy to put them through Princeton, it comes down to who has to do the actual fighting and who gets to skip out on his duties in the Texas Air National Guard.

[Rudey]

My first point could also be proven wrong if you had some evidence or facts or anything like that showing those veterans weren't outliers. But until then there is a strong could. Hey some veterans are diabetics - so I guess that translates into Veterans are diabetics? Yeah ok thanks come again...next time say something funny...funny haha.

-Rudey
--Rudey
---Rudey
----Rudey
-----Rudey

Originally posted by sugar and spice
Your first point could be proved wrong simply by looking at all the army Veterans out there who were against this war. At least in my city they were some of the first and most vocal protesters against it. There were a lot of men and women who served proudly in WWII, Korea and even Vietnam who were against this one.

And as for the second, I know plenty of people -- granted a lot of them are pretty young and don't know all that much yet -- who were against this war and didn't have a clue about the military's composition and what issues there are with it. And I'm sure some of them wouldn't have cared if they had.

There were a lot of reasons why people were against this war, not just some generic sense of hippie liberal pacifism. There were a lot of people who would have gladly supported it if it had been carried out differently or a different/better case had been made for it. And it was, for the most part, those people, not the hippie pacifists, who were the ones warning that going to Iraq was stretch our army too thin.

And I don't think that any of us are naive enough to believe that the draft is going to create equality. Instead of who has to serve in the army in order to get money for college and who gets their Daddy to put them through Princeton, it comes down to who has to do the actual fighting and who gets to skip out on his duties in the Texas Air National Guard.

[PhiPsiRuss]

Originally posted by sugar and spice
Your first point could be proved wrong simply by looking at all the army Veterans out there who were against this war. At least in my city they were some of the first and most vocal protesters against it. There were a lot of men and women who served proudly in WWII, Korea and even Vietnam who were against this one.

And as for the second, I know plenty of people -- granted a lot of them are pretty young and don't know all that much yet -- who were against this war and didn't have a clue about the military's composition and what issues there are with it. And I'm sure some of them wouldn't have cared if they had.

There were a lot of reasons why people were against this war, not just some generic sense of hippie liberal pacifism. There were a lot of people who would have gladly supported it if it had been carried out differently or a different/better case had been made for it. And it was, for the most part, those people, not the hippie pacifists, who were the ones warning that going to Iraq was stretch our army too thin.

And I don't think that any of us are naive enough to believe that the draft is going to create equality. Instead of who has to serve in the army in order to get money for college and who gets their Daddy to put them through Princeton, it comes down to who has to do the actual fighting and who gets to skip out on his duties in the Texas Air National Guard.

Heather, that is one of the most specious arguments that I have read. You live in Madison, Wisconson, a bastion of the American Left. Your anecdotal observations are anything but indicitive of a broad sampling of American veterans, or of the population as a whole.

Also, the United States has never entered into a war in which it had a fully staffed military. The US is currently suffering from Bill Clinton's decision to reduce the American miltary from two theater capability to one. The time that it would take to restore it back to two theater capability is at least a half decade.

But getting back to the point of this thread, people, like Charlie Rangel, who have recently called for the reinstatement of the draft, are putting class warfare ahead of what's best for America. Reservists have time, and time again proven to be less effective. The casualty rate of reservists in the current Iraqi theater of operations is six times higher than that of fulltime professional soldiers.

Supporting the draft is essentially supporting a decrease in the effectiveness of the American military, an increase in American civil unrest, and a diminishment of the credibility of American force.

[Munchkin03]

Originally posted by sugar and spice
There were a lot of men and women who served proudly in WWII, Korea and even Vietnam who were against this one.

Very very very true. This is true of my very politically conservative military base hometown, where all of my older male relatives, and fathers of friends served at some time in their lives, and guess what? They're against this "war," too. Not a bastion of liberal thinking, this place.

If anything, I am very happy that Selective Services has tweaked its college deferment to prevent an inequality of socioeconomic and racial representation that happened in Vietnam.

[Rudey]

Originally posted by Munchkin03
Very very very true. This is true of my very politically conservative military base hometown, where all of my older male relatives, and fathers of friends served at some time in their lives, and guess what? They're against this "war," too. Not a bastion of liberal thinking, this place.

If anything, I am very happy that Selective Services has tweaked its college deferment to prevent an inequality of socioeconomic and racial representation that happened in Vietnam.

Oh and what percentage of veterans is this town?

-Rudey

[Munchkin03]

Originally posted by Rudey
Oh and what percentage of veterans is this town?

-Rudey

I would say a rough estimate of about 60-65% of the men where I live are active duty, retired, or spent some time in the military. One air base to the east, another to the left, and minor installations throughout the area.

[Rudey]

Originally posted by Munchkin03
I would say a rough estimate of about 60-65% of the men where I live are active duty, retired, or spent some time in the military. One air base to the east, another to the left, and minor installations throughout the area.

Now do you have a rough estimate of what percentage of overall veterans they are? How about a rough estimate of how many of them were against this war? I love these rough estimates.

-Rudey
--2+2 is roughly 5...except it's really 4 if you think about it

[GeekyPenguin]

Originally posted by russellwarshay
Heather, that is one of the most specious arguments that I have read. You live in Madison, Wisconson, a bastion of the American Left. Your anecdotal observations are anything but indicitive of a broad sampling of American veterans, or of the population as a whole.

And I live in the most conservative county in the state, and one of the top ones in the nation. It's a bastion of the American Right. I hear our people go to Madison to protest, it's only about 45 minutes away, if that. The opposition to this war in ALL PARTS of Wisconsin was stronger than a lot of people expected. Even our segregated cheese-eating citizens can get upset over something they think is WRONG. I wouldn't say her perception is skewed. I saw demonstrations in Milwaukee at my conservative university that is a bastion of the Religious Right and demonstrations in Waukesha, which wouldn't be any more conservative unless we moved BYU or Bob Jones here. Don't criticize her argument based on location...oh wait, New Yorkers can't hear.

[ZTAngel]

Originally posted by Munchkin03
As for members of our armed services being paid poorly:

The actual take-home pay may be low, but the benefits (IMHO) more than make up for that, and make the life of an active-duty family financially more comfortable than that of a civilian family with the same salary.

1. Housing allowance if you choose to live off-base. There is on-base housing for singles and families. In the event that you want to buy a home, the VA offers low-interest loans without a down payment.
2. Subsidized healthcare during active duty and retirement. Even if one did not make a career out of the Armed Forces, he or she still has the benefits of the Veterans Administration hospitals (which, granted, vary in quality).
3. Access to the Base Exchanges and Commissaries, which offer goods for a lower price than off-base.
4. Job security.

NCOs may make less than officers, but most don't have a college education. If you consider the benefits offered by the Armed Forces, despite the seemingly low salary, it's probably more than most 18 year olds with just a high school education could make.

Also, the retirement benefits are superb. On top of it, even when you are a retired military officer or soldier, you are still paid. You also still get health benefits and other great insurance deals (they have a car insurance company, USAA, which offers insurance to those who have served or their families....the premiums are much lower than a regular person's premium). It's kinda like being a teacher. The pay isn't wonderful but you have awesome benefits.

[Rudey]

Originally posted by GeekyPenguin
And I live in the most conservative county in the state, and one of the top ones in the nation. It's a bastion of the American Right. I hear our people go to Madison to protest, it's only about 45 minutes away, if that. The opposition to this war in ALL PARTS of Wisconsin was stronger than a lot of people expected. Even our segregated cheese-eating citizens can get upset over something they think is WRONG. I wouldn't say her perception is skewed. I saw demonstrations in Milwaukee at my conservative university that is a bastion of the Religious Right and demonstrations in Waukesha, which wouldn't be any more conservative unless we moved BYU or Bob Jones here. Don't criticize her argument based on location...oh wait, New Yorkers can't hear.

New Yorkers can't hear? Go eat cheese.

-Rudey
--At the Mars cheese store!

[PhiPsiRuss]

Originally posted by GeekyPenguin
And I live in the most conservative county in the state, and one of the top ones in the nation. It's a bastion of the American Right. I hear our people go to Madison to protest, it's only about 45 minutes away, if that. The opposition to this war in ALL PARTS of Wisconsin was stronger than a lot of people expected. Even our segregated cheese-eating citizens can get upset over something they think is WRONG. I wouldn't say her perception is skewed. I saw demonstrations in Milwaukee at my conservative university that is a bastion of the Religious Right and demonstrations in Waukesha, which wouldn't be any more conservative unless we moved BYU or Bob Jones here. Don't criticize her argument based on location...oh wait, New Yorkers can't hear.

You're wrong, wrong, and wrong.

Your perception is skewed, and the opposition was not stronger, just louder.

Most Americans support this theater of operations, and President Bush has a high approval rating.

You have no metrics to back up your perspective, but you do seem to be loaded with ignorance about New Yorkers.

[GeekyPenguin]

Originally posted by Rudey
New Yorkers can't hear? Go eat cheese.

-Rudey
--At the Mars cheese store!

LOL that's almost in Illinois, and as far as I'm concerned, we should annex it, since y'all are the only ones who shop there.

-GP
--You can also have Platteville if you want it

[GeekyPenguin]

Originally posted by russellwarshay
You're wrong, wrong, and wrong.

Your perception is skewed, and the opposition was not stronger, just louder.

Most Americans support this theater of operations, and President Bush has a high approval rating.

You have no metrics to back up your perspective, but you do seem to be loaded with ignorance about New Yorkers.

Just like you are loaded with ignorance about Wiiiiiiiiiisconsin. Emphasis on the Wiiiiiiii so you pronounce it right if you ever have occasion to say it aloud.

Most Americans support this theater now because we have a nice furry dictator to dangle in front of their eyes.

Look, Metrics!

His approval rating is averaging around 60%. Not only is that not high, it's not even high for him.

Or what did you want metrics about? Cheese? The conservativeness in Waukesha County, Wisconsin? Deaf New Yorkers? Average travel time to the Mars Cheese Castle from Lake Forest, Illinois, on the way up to the Prime Outlets?

[Rudey]

Originally posted by GeekyPenguin
LOL that's almost in Illinois, and as far as I'm concerned, we should annex it, since y'all are the only ones who shop there.

-GP
--You can also have Platteville if you want it

Platteville sounds like it has lots of ducks or aquatic birds. The only cool thing about your stores are beer bottle shaped cheese. That's hard to find elsewhere and nothing beats a cold bottle of gouda.

-Rudey