Tight Curls or Silky Straight???

[serenity_24]

Originally posted by Poplife:

The "versatility" reason has always interested me because I see it a different way. I can wear all the styles that I could when I was perming and PLUS all the hot new natural styles that won't work with straight hair. To me that's versatility.

*Whit clinched fist in the air* Right On Sista!!! Right On!!


2.) Some women go a month or two without perming and try and judge their "natural" hair by what's sitting at the roots. They think that it was they will be working with should they stop perming. It's not that easy people! Your hair texture WILL CHANGE over time.

This is so true!!! When you perm your hair, the relaxer does not just get applied to the hair, it gets on the scalp. And as others have mentioned, it obviously is absorbed by the scalp and your hair folicles. this means thst the hair that was in the process of growing inside your scalp at the time of your perm will be affected by the chemicals as well. Therefore, when it starts to grow out, it is hard and brittle and dry. This is not the natural texture of your hair.

[Eclipse]

Originally posted by Poplife:
Good Questions, Eclipse.

When I say "dreadful", that's in the literal sense. My natural hair would coil itself in the same way that dreadlocks do. It made it very hard for me to manage my hair because I had two drastically different textures on a single strand.

My original plan was to loc my hair as soon as I grew enough. If I didn't have the softness and the curl I would have gone ahead with the locing. But I liked my hair so much "untamed" that I decided to let it be. I might loc it later on in life, but right now I am enjoying the versatility of wearing twists, afro puffs, fluffy ponytails, and the like.

As for the be-be's (or buckshots as we say down here), why would I be ashamed of that? Do YOU have those when you don't touch up, and are YOU ashamed?? Do you think the only people that can be proud of their natural hair are people that have some curl like me? That's the vibe your giving me. Shoot, naps are a natural part of being black. Besides, I don't have what some call "good hair". It's pretty, but it's rough! It's brittle in the back, soft at the roots and in the front, and curly on the ends. I'm just so used to it that the idea doesn't phase me. Like you said, buckshots only happen when you don't comb your hair. I don't know what notions you might have of natural headed people, but most of us are meticulous groomers. I wash my hair 5 times a week (minimum) and every night I moisturize, comb, twist, and wrap. All of my natural friends have similar grooming habits.

You might feel that I am trying to give permed people a hard time, but that is not my intent. I just want people to question themselves and their reasoning. Like I was telling someone before, it's not fun but it's helpful in the long run.

I don't like chemicals period. I believe them to be toxic for the black women's body as well as her spirit. Occasionally I feel like wearing the “loose curl look”. I just grab some CD hair milk, slap it on after a shower, and roll out. BAM! Instant natural texturizer. There’s nothing wrong with experimenting. But I consider a texturizer one of my “traps” since you go through the same things with a full relaxer.

What's a blow-out kit?

Lord, Child you don't know what a blow out kit is??? LOL I guess I'm showing my age, huh! Blow out kits were very popular in the 70s when The Michael Jackson/Foster Silvers (you have heard of the Silvers, right?) look was quite popular. It was designed to make your afro bigger by using chemicals and heat to strech out the curl pattern a bit. They were the rage. Ask you momma 'nem, they'll tell you!

Now, as for the vibe I'm giving you...I don't think any of those things. My questions came from your assertions that a person's hair texture will probably change (like yours did) after they get rid of the perm and the "DREADFUL" state is not a permanant (no pun intended!) state. When I read this, I took from it that because of this a person should not be 'scared' to go natural. Since I didn't want to put words in your mouth, I decided to ask. I was trying to determine if your hair had stayed "DREADFUL" (your word, not mine) if you would have continued with your decision and trying to understand why you, with your 'happy to be nappy' self, would use such a word to discribe your natural hair texture. It may not have been the permanant texture, but it was the natural texture. BTW...in the literal sense "dreadful" means "Causing great fear or anxiety". Most of the consciously loc'ed (meaning they are doing it for political or religious reasons) folks that I know detest the word "dreadlocks" as a friend of my says (I think she is quoting someone else) "Ain't nothing DREADFUL about my HAIR" I guess you could have meant the 3rd defination (according to my dictionary "inspiring awe!"

Eclipse

Oh yeah...who said I ever got/needed a touch up? I might have 'good hair' that leads me not to use chemicals. (And I will leave it up to YOU to define 'good hair'!)

[Poplife]

Originally posted by Eclipse:
Now as for the vibe I'm giving you...I don't think any of those things. My questions came from your assertions that a person's hair texture will probably change (like yours did) after they get rid of the perm and the "DREADFUL" state is not a permanant (no pun intended!) state. When I read this, I took from it that because of this a person should not be 'scared' to go natural. Since I didn't want to put words in your mouth, I decided to ask. I was trying to determine if your hair had stayed "DREADFUL" (your word, not mine) if you would have continued with your decision and trying to understand why you, with your 'happy to be nappy' self, would use such a word to discribe your natural hair texture. BTW...in the literal sense "dreadful" means "Causing great fear or anxiety". Most of the consciously loc'ed (meaning they are doing it for political or religious reasons) folks that I know detest the word "dreadlocks" as a friend of my says (I think she is quoting someone else) "Ain't nothing DREADFUL about my HAIR" I guess you could have meant the 3rd defination (according to my dictionary "inspiring awe!"

Dag, I forget that I'm not talking to close circle of natural friends.

"Dreadful" is a sarcastic term my friends and I concocted to describe what a lot of hair . We don't use it as a derogatory term...more like a explanation of texture. Like I said, we used it to describe hair that "dreads" on it's own. I say "dreadlock" because if you just say "loc" it's a slightly different look. Locs are tubular and Dreads are more angular.

I will rephase with just for you.

"My new growth was very tightly coiled when I first stopped perming."

It may not have been the permanent texture, but it was the natural texture.

New growth is NOT the true natural texture. As Serenity said, it's the fake me out natural that still has the chemicals on it that seeped through the scalp. It takes a while for your hair to purify itself. After that's done your true hair will come out. That's why I personally don't count new growth as natural hair.

Oh yeah...who said I ever got/needed a touch up? I might have 'good hair' that leads me not to use chemicals. (And I will leave it up to YOU to define 'good hair'!)!"

Good hair is hair that does exactly what you want.

Whether you perm or not, the tone you used when talking about nappy hair lead me to believe that you don't like it. You tell me which is worse: A black person with kinky hair that hates it, or a black person with "mixed"/straight hair that hates kinks?

Both are self-defeating.

[This message has been edited by Poplife (edited January 25, 2001).]

[CinnamonInsight]

I've been geeting my hair permed since I was 4 years old, and I wouldn't have it any other way! The natural look just isn't for me. Getting my hair permed is what I'm used to and it's what I've know as long as I can remember. I perm and style my own hair so it's not a hassle to take care of my hair. I love my permed tresses and I'll keep it that way. No one in my family has kept their hair natural for their entire lifetime w/ the exception of my great grandmother (God, rest her soul).

[allsmiles_22]

Originally posted by Poplife:

That goes back to what I asked Eclipse.

Why is the only "acceptable" natural hair, white girl curly/bi-racial natural?

My hair is still "black hair". It's funny that people hear "curly" and automaticly think of silky, bouncy, pantene pro-v curls. Ain't nothing silky on this head! I got an afro...it's just curly. *lol*

Girl, how did you get all of that out of my ONE sentence? If I didn't say all that, then don't assume that's what I meant. I was just stating a fact that some black people deal with. It was just a joke, lighten up, and I wasn't referring to you. You're alright, be natural.

[Poplife]

Originally posted by allsmiles_22:
Girl, how did you get all of that out of my ONE sentence? If I didn't say all that, then don't assume that's what I meant. I was just stating a fact that some black people deal with. It was just a joke, lighten up, and I wasn't referring to you. You're alright, be natural.

I'm not a joking type of girl.

[misskriss01]

I just had to come back and add a few more comments.

I think that as black women, we are the most diverse group of creatures to ever walk this earth. We come in a variety of different shapes, sizes and colors, and each of us is very unique. Being a black women, we have so many options as to what to do with our hair, which is what makes being a black woman so wonderful. I believe our personality speaks through our hair. If one chooses to relax their tresses, "lock 'em up", or just let it curl up, we must respect each other's choice. Just because a woman chooses to get a relaxer doesn't make her any more/less black than the woman who chooses to wear afro puffs.

There is chemical and disease engineering going on everywhere. Unless you are a hermit, living in the back hills of Kentucky somewhere, growing and herding your own food, you are subject to some kind of "exposure" to unknown chemicals. It's everywhere - who knows, maybe not only your relaxers but your shampoo and conditioners!!

All I really want to say is that hair is a form of expression in some respects. Whether you choose to go straight, go natural or go jheri curl, it's all about you!! Period.

[exquizit]

Originally posted by Poplife:

I'm not a joking type of girl.

Obviously.

My question is.Why does the topic of hair get so dang touchy? Personally I really think it was great for you guys to educated the "Permed Ones" such as myself on what we're doing to our bodies. Honestly it did make me think for a second.

On the same token it didn't make me want to stop at once either (my choice, it may sound crazy but this whole world is a little looney)
Maybe one day, but not today. I did leave the boards with a little more to think about as far as my perming goes but this whole thing leaves me feeling as though some are being a bit self rightous. You went natural and bravo, but no matter how much you try to bang people's heads ther's still gonna be a bit of perming going on. But as you made the joke (or not) before POP about the underground perm thing...I really don't think it'll come to that


[This message has been edited by exquizit (edited January 25, 2001).]

[1 Woman of Virtue]

Originally posted by exquizit:
Obviously.

My question is.Why does the topic of hair get so dang touchy? Personally I really think it was great for you guys to educated the "Permed Ones" such as myself on what we're doing to our bodies. Honestly it did make me think for a second.
I did leave the boards with a little more to think about as far as my perming goes but this whole thing leaves me feeling as though some are being a bit self rightous. You went natural and bravo, but no matter how much you try to bang people's heads ther's still gonna be a bit of perming going on.


[This message has been edited by exquizit (edited January 25, 2001).]

One thing about life: we all see it through the veils of our experiences. I could just as easily say that those of you w/ perms started in on the convo feeling like you had to defend yourself and your beliefs from us natural heads. I think both may have a touch of truth.
While I don't think anyone on this thread was attempting to bang anyone's head in, we all had an opportunity to engage in meaningful, challenging discussion. And that my dear sisterfriends is a wonderful part of being a woman--we just got it like that!
If any one felt like their toes were getting crunched on--either in this thread or any other, or life in general--we need to examine why. Don't just assume that it is because you were attacked...maybe your stance on the issue was not well stated and that is what others were responding to, then there is the chance that you (me, whoever, the person in question) were just wrong (hey, it happens). In any event, I must say that this forum is one of the FEW that I have found where memberfriends and sisterfriends can engage in some semblance of real discussion, and I greatly appreciate it. God Bless.


[This message has been edited by 1 Woman of Virtue (edited January 25, 2001).]

[AKA2D '91]

Originally posted by misskriss01:
I think that as black women, we are the most diverse group of creatures to ever walk this earth. We come in a variety of different shapes, sizes and colors, and each of us is very unique. Being a black women, we have so many options as to what to do with our hair, which is what makes being a black woman so wonderful. I believe our personality speaks through our hair. If one chooses to relax their tresses, "lock 'em up", or just let it curl up, we must respect each other's choice. Just because a woman chooses to get a relaxer doesn't make her any more/less black than the woman who chooses to wear afro puffs.

(from the AMEN bench)

VERY WELL SAID!

THERE ARE MORE IMPORTANT THINGS GOING ON IN THIS WORLD! GEESH!

NEXT THREAD, PUHHHLLLLLEEEZZZZEE!

[Classy_Diva5]

1 Woman of Virtue- GOOD POINTS!!! I am glad that you too know about the "bad" side of getting relaxers. I try to educate my friends; I tell them about the products not being tested by the FDA, how the chemicals break down the hair shaft (that is why the hair gets so thin-your hair strands are being stripped), etc.-and one response that I got was (and I kid you not) "Well, those are only the relaxers that you find in the stores" -I THOUGHT THAT ALL RELAXERS ARE IN THE STORES!! WHERE ELSE ARE YOU GOING TO BUY YOUR RELAXER? WHERE DOES YOUR HAIRSTYLIST BUY HER SUPPLIES?

The point that I am trying to make is that if you choose to relax your hair, that is your business-but when someone tries to educate you on the dangers of using chemicals on your body, listen to what they are trying to tell you (we never get "old" enough to stop learning, ESPECIALLY when it comes to our bodies). The moment that I found out about the green film coating the skull due to relaxers (a friend told ME), I IMMEDIATELY stopped using them.

When you go to the shop to get your hair done(in most cases) your stylist WILL NOT tell you about the dangers of relaxers. Why? Because relaxers generate top $$$! When you get your relaxer done, a "virgin" treatment will run up anywhere from $60.00-$110.00 (that is how much it costs here where I live in CA), and touch-ups are just as costly. And most stylists don't even KNOW about the effects because in beauty school, it is not in their textbooks.
Be sure that you know all of the facts before doing ANYTHING to your body that has permanent/long term effects.

Ladies-whether our hair be relaxed or natural, take good care of it! If you have a personal hair stylist, ask questions. If your questions can't be answered, do the research on your own, THEN take it to your stylist so that he/she may learn something new as well .



------------------
"Mind ya own, stay true to ya own, be ya own."
Peace and God Bless
Classy_Diva5

[Poplife]

EX, I try not to expect anything from anyone. That helps curb the disappointment.
MissKriss is right. Black women are very diverse. That's why it irks me that MOST black women choose to kill their hair because they "like the way it looks". Hey, I'm not going to lie...I used to love perms. But then again I didn't know half the history of black hair in America, nor did I know the health facts related to perming.


MissKriss, said that our hair is "all about us", but is it really?

*SLAVE OWNERS told black women to cover their heads because they didn't like the way it looked.

*Part of our jobs as slaves (if you worked in da Beg Howse) was to style the WHITE WOMEN'S silky, long, flowing hair while hiding our short, nappy mess under a rag.

*MADAME CJ WALKER makes this same SILKY, LONG, FLOWING, hair available to "us" for cheap.

*My MOTHER relaxed my hair so when I got older I followed suit.


All that hair history and not once am I (or any of the people reading this) involved until now. I feel my strong desire to perm was a product of historical/maternal influence, not a truly conscious decision.

Much of not perming and perming is about acceptance of self, not acceptance of blackness. You hair is not just growth, it's a part of our heritage that is unique to us and ONLY us. Why ruin it to look like someone else? But, there are folks out there with natural heads and processed minds. And many processed heads have "natural minds". It goes both ways.

Today I came up with the saying, "Black is Beautiful...after we've worked on it a little." It has been my experience in life that many people are quick to talk about how much they love being black, but hate the very things that set blacks apart from the rest. When you have kinky hair many men won't talk to you, women whisper about you when you walk by, your family always talks about you "old hair" as if it were a person you killed, your own people make assumptions about you upon sight based off the hair texture, BLACK people touch your hair like they‘ve never seen anything like it, BLACK WOMEN come up and tell you that your hair is beautiful but they “don‘t have the guts to pull it off“. All this because you’re permless?? To me, people that feel “it’s no big deal” think that because they’ve never gone through the things my natural friends and I have. Besides, if it’s no big deal then how do you explain what I just told you?

EX, you asked why is hair such sensitive subject. Well, all women are into their hair to, but black women have suffered the most trauma due to white influence. It’s the same reason many Africans bleach themselves and it’s the same reason North Indians think they are better than South Indians. No one likes to hear that they have been strongly influenced by white culture. People hear that and translate it into “Pop thinks you want to be white!!” *lol* If you’re black in America white culture has been shoved down your throat and we need to think about what we can do to start changing that. That’s all I’m trying to say! But for some people THAT’S TOO MUCH. They slap “militant” on my butt and run from the room screaming with their hands over their ears. Sorry, the truth hurts, and if you can’t accept that fact all American Blacks are a product of attempted assimilation then you have a long way to go.

AKA2D: Yes there are more important things in a sense. But talking about perms is not just talking about hair, it’s talking about how this bad white world has tried to make us feel for hundreds of years. That’s a serious topic. How can we move on to bigger things when people still say “good hair”?


------------------

Oh, these little earthquakes
Here we go again...
Doesn't take much to rip us into pieces...
“Tori Amos”



[This message has been edited by Poplife (edited January 26, 2001).]

[Eclipse]

Originally posted by Poplife:
Dag, I forget that I'm not talking to close circle of natural friends.

"Dreadful" is a sarcastic term my friends and I concocted to describe what a lot of hair . We don't use it as a derogatory term...more like a explanation of texture. Like I said, we used it to describe hair that "dreads" on it's own. I say "dreadlock" because if you just say "loc" it's a slightly different look. Locs are tubular and Dreads are more angular.

I will rephase with just for you.

"My new growth was very tightly coiled when I first stopped perming."


New growth is NOT the true natural texture. As Serenity said, it's the fake me out natural that still has the chemicals on it that seeped through the scalp. It takes a while for your hair to purify itself. After that's done your true hair will come out. That's why I personally don't count new growth as natural hair.

Good hair is hair that does exactly what you want.

Whether you perm or not, the tone you used when talking about nappy hair lead me to believe that you don't like it. You tell me which is worse: A black person with kinky hair that hates it, or a black person with "mixed"/straight hair that hates kinks?

Both are self-defeating.

[This message has been edited by Poplife (edited January 25, 2001).]

Thanks for the explaination on what you meant by dreadful, however, it does make me think of the folks that banter the "N" word around casually and talk about how we now 'own the word" and have 'turned it into something good." But I degress...this ain't about that! I wonder where the term 'dreadlocks' first came from. Does anyone know?

Please, help me understand what in my 'tone' of writing about nappy hair made you assume that I don't like it?? I have re-read all of my posts and I'm just not seeing it! Help a sista out!!

Hey, and how do you do that quote in the middle of your page thingie? I wanna do that too!!

[This message has been edited by Eclipse (edited January 26, 2001).]

[DST Love]

Originally posted by Poplife:
Yes there are more important things in a sense. But talking about perms is not just talking about hair, it’s talking about how this bad white world has tried to make us feel for hundreds of years. That’s a serious topic. How can we move on to bigger things when people still say “good hair”?

I so did not want to post anything, but I just have to say that I dig your honesty, Poplife. I'm going to sound hypocritical with my relaxed hair, but here goes. Whether or not we want to realize or admit it, we do relax our hair for the very reasons Poplife has been stating, which is why I think some people can't handle what is being stated. No one really wants to have to question decisions that they make. Maybe consciously we're not ashamed and more so that it is that we're just used to doing what we've been doing for years. But you have to go back and say why did mama, grandma, great-grandma and so on, feel the need to straighten our hair.

People need to be honest, as I will be to. If you could know for sure that your hair still might look as "good" natural, then we'd all do it in a heartbeat. Because who really wants to have to keep getting relaxers forever. But we're so afraid of what our hair might look like if we grow it out. And I understand that, as a lot of our insecurities are due to society and what is deemed attractive. But really think about it: who really likes putting chemicals in their hair and burning their scalp, and spending lots of money and time in a salon (although I don't do the last part as I "do" my own hair).

However, I do beleive, that after hearing all aspects of this argument, if someone still wants to relax their hair, then that is not an indicator of how black someone is nor is it for anyone to judge. As I beleive Poplife, you stated,

"there are folks out there with natural heads and processed minds. And many processed heads have "natural minds". It goes both ways."


[This message has been edited by DST Love (edited January 26, 2001).]

[allsmiles_22]

Like AKA2D'91 said "THERE ARE MORE IMPORTANT THINGS GOING ON IN THIS WORLD". One cannot sit around and weigh the slavery affects of whether to perm or not to perm-that's a waste of time. We as black people got too much going on in life-THE HERE AND THE NOW-to worry about that.

If you want examples- our current political situation, the AIDS crisis in Africa, the rise of AIDS among your black women, the poverty in our black communities, the health problems of the black population, etc. These are some real issues that we need to address because this "bad white world" isn't.

We need to focus on the BIGGER, SERIOUS and more SUBSTANTIAL problems rather than the insignificant ones. Once we have established our position in society, then we can focus on how we look in it.

My solution: We all just need to put our relaxed or permed heads together and find way to combat the pertinent problems at hand.