The 10 Commandments and Alabama

[sugar and spice]

Originally posted by daoine


What I do see is Christianity very comfortable with being the defacto standard, and not enjoying it when the standard is changing.

I think this deserves repeating, and perhaps some discussion.

We're coming out of an age where all Americans were either Protestant, Catholic, or MAYBE Jewish, and if you practiced anything else you sort of shoved it under the rug and didn't mention it. These days people are exploring more belief systems, and it's much more socially acceptable to be Muslim, Wiccan, Buddhist, Unitarian, agnostic, atheist, whatever than it has been in recent years. As other religions gain in popularity, it's only natural that Christianity with decrease somewhat and lose some of the prominence that it used to be guaranteed.



I agree with DeltAlum. While the founders of our country were mostly Christians (with a handful of Deists and agnostics thrown in), there was a specific reason why they, in spite of their religious beliefs, decided to mandate a separation of church and state in this country.

[justamom]

Originally posted by Honeykiss1974
...And going forward, how do we reconcile this and where do you draw the line? If I am not comfortable going to a courthouse where the greek god of knowledge is displayed shouldn't that be removed as well? After all isn't that a violation of church (pagan religion) and state?

Just asking some questions............

Good point!

Seperation of church and state-
Seperation not obliteration.

Delt Alum, I see your point, but I think many have taken a singular statment and turned it into a mantra.

AKA-MONET Besides, Christians are told to believe in only ONE commandment given to them by Jesus Christ after the Ressurection... That is Love God with all your heart and love one another as I have loved you, so you must love one another... That point to me is that the commandments are supposed to be written on you heart (Isaiah and Jeramiah say that)... That is the final covenant between God and man that was made in the OT... The NT adds to that covenant thru the Ressurection...

Is there any temple that can truly pay hommage to God on Earth that He created?
Wouldn't it be nice if everyone could appear before a judge with these beliefs, to love one another as I have loved you?

Well, there is a bright spot. THEY ARE STILL THERE...just less visible. So MAYBE we can see this as a win-win situation.
I guess they can stick a fountain with Pan spitting water out of his mouth, flute or some other body part.

[justamom]

...kind of off topic, but the thought just hit me.

I've never been to a public funded/state run hospital. Do they have chapels?

I know all the ones I've visited have a non denominational atmosphere, but never noticed if they were inclusive, in their decor, of non Christians.

Maybe it wouldn't matter because people freely choose to go and pray or meditate. Just wondering.

[daoine]

Originally posted by Honeykiss1974
Question for those that support the removal of the 10 commandments:

Would you feel the same if this building WAS NOT a courthouse, but some other type of state or federal building (I dunno, let's say the DMV or Arlington National cemetary)?

And going forward, how do we reconcile this and where do you draw the line? If I am not comfortable going to a courthouse where the greek god of knowledge is displayed shouldn't that be removed as well? After all isn't that a violation of church (pagan religion) and state?

I'd like to start with the second question first, and I'd like to start with the pagan/greek god thing. I'd first like to dispel the notion that all pagan worship greek gods, because that's simply not true. There is a branch (Hellenismo) which does in fact use the greek gods as it's basis, but it's rather different than the ancient greek religion.

However, I'd like to point out how our culture views greek gods -- how many of you had to read Edith Hamilton's Mythology in high school? Our culture looks upon ancient greek religion as a cultural fairy tale. We look to it for stories of wisdom, love, secrecy. Lets face it, our GLOs have basis in the mythos. We don't view it as a current religion, we view it as an ancient culture from which ours grew. Very different -- depictions of greek gods are not to say "We worship greek gods" but to say "look back to this past culture". I find it impossible to believe that the 10 commandments are doing the same.

On to other government buildings. No, religion does not belong in the DMV [unless you're watching a 16 year old boy get his license...then y'all better be prayin' he doesn't hit ya!] Off hand, there are only two places I can think of where I believe it should be welcome in government buildings: museums and cemeteries.

I think the reasoning is rather obvious. In neither case is the government presenting a religion, instead it is allowing the culture of the society to permeate into the building. Museums are like archives of our culture. Religion is part of our culture -- to remove it from a museum is to ignore the culture. Displaying a piece of work in a museum is *significantly* different from displaying a piece of work in a courtroom or DMV.

In the same vein, a cemetery that doesn't allow people to properly grieve is rather useless as a cemetery. I think it should be duly noted that at the time of construction, Christian beliefs were assumed [note honeychile's picture] -- which isn't a problem until you're a Jewish soldier being buried under a cross that means nothing. But going in and ripping out all religion defeats the purpose of the cemetery. I just think that we need to be able to account for different faiths -- it really shouldn't have to be all crosses in a row -- it should reflect what the person and their family need to mourn.

[MattUMASSD]

Originally posted by honeychile
Sometimes a picture says a thousand words:

Where is this cemetery?

[adduncan]

Originally posted by justamom
...kind of off topic, but the thought just hit me.

I've never been to a public funded/state run hospital. Do they have chapels?

The one I work at does.
The chapels and meditation rooms are scattered throughout the public areas (with a main one associated w/ the Chaplaincy / Pastoral care office). Some are generic, some are very religion-specific (ie, Muslim prayer rooms). There is also a section that promotes other faith-based activities like Tibeten Meditation and Reiki.

I dont' know if MDACC is the best general example tho: it is a *huge* world-renowned institution that deals with a wide variety of people from different backgrounds in some very complex and critical medical care. They've had to learn to strike a balance between being patient with people of other faiths, and yet providing for that aspect of care.

Interestingly, while the staff has to allow for (almost) any expression of faith, if a staff member--even accidentally--expresses their *own* faith in a manner that rubs anyone even slightly the wrong way, they end up in front of a disciplinary committee before the end of the day.

It's a tough balance.

Adrienne

[adduncan]

Originally posted by Optimist Prime
It doesn't matter. Those people were faithful and claimed to be furthering their faith, and a lot of them were serioius about it.

There was never a Tibetan Inquisition.

See, this is the kind of point my question was addressing.

How do you know they were "faithful"? People can call themselves Christians but don't live up to those ideals. (There are plenty of threads in GC that shred people for that failure.)

While we're at that one: is it OK to judge an entire religious body based on the (mis) deeds a few? (I can dig up the thread about how I was mistreated by a Jewish community when I was a child if you really want to get into this.)

But since Optimist Prime is alluding to the Spanish Inquisition, I'll ask it again: are you sure they were acting on behalf of the Chruch w/ the Pope's approval? Or were they using the Church as a tool to further their secular agenda of staying in power and keeping their lead over the Moors?

I dont' think your flippant 3-sentence answer is going to solve that one, big guy.

[Honeykiss1974]

Originally posted by daoine
I'd like to start with the second question first, and I'd like to start with the pagan/greek god thing. I'd first like to dispel the notion that all pagan worship greek gods, because that's simply not true. There is a branch (Hellenismo) which does in fact use the greek gods as it's basis, but it's rather different than the ancient greek religion.

But the fact remains that these are figures (greek gods/goddesses) are in fact worshiped by a group of people who deem it as their religion. Again, if we are using the seperation of church and state argument, then it needs to apply to all - and not just whomever is the largest denomination.

[daoine]

Originally posted by Honeykiss1974
But the fact remains that these are figures (greek gods/goddesses) are in fact worshiped by a group of people who deem it as their religion. Again, if we are using the seperation of church and state argument, then it needs to apply to all - and not just whomever is the largest denomination.

Thus the second point about how our culture views greek mythology. If I decide to worship money, do we have to remove it from the government? What if I choose to worship the American flag? Does it go too? The president? [If that's the case, can we all start worshipping corrupt politicians?] We all have the right to worship whatever we want - it makes your description of separation impossible to implement.

I'm reiterating myself, but the point is that money, flags, greek gods -- all of these things have primarily <i>secular</i> meanings within our culture -- religious meanings are secondary, and are to a select group. It has nothing to do with a majority/minority, and everything to do with how our culture developed. The 10 commandments do not share that same meaning -- they have no secular purpose; the sole purpose is the religious meaning.

The separation between church and state does not mean "take anything out that could be construed as religious to any human being" -- it is, by design, meant to allow people to feel free to worship whomever or whatever they want, and to prevent religion from directly influencing how the people are governed. In my eyes, that means that anything with a primarily religious purpose is not appropriate.

[blueGBI]

Personally, I dont see what everyone is so angry about why the 10 amendments. Its not like the judge was saying, you have to believe in Jesus or in God. Most of the 10 commandments can be found in our laws. Legally, with the precedent set by the 1962 decision to take prayer out of school with by saying that it falls under separation of church and state, the state had the legal right to remove the statue.

(puts on flame-retardant gear)

I think alot of people have a problem with this statue because unlike most religions, Christianity is offending because the central teaching is that Jesus is the only way to the God. That offends because in most religions there are multiple ways to the Lord but there is only one way with Jesus. People like to forget it and get rid of all reminders of it. So I'm not surprised by the state of Alabama moving the statue and I expect to see more lawsuits and decisions with the intent to move any and all references to Christianity.

(/takes off flame-retardant gear)

[justamom]

Well, not to offend any Christians, and not to start a whole other debate, but I for one believe anyone who holds a belief in God, (...and yes, I'll go out on a bigger limb and say my God may be known by many names to many different people) will find their place in Heaven.

What I find notable is the fact that these were given to the people BEFORE CHRISTIANITY EVEN EXISTED!

The Ten Commandments (a.k.a. Decalogue) are accepted by Judaism, Christianity and Islam as a summary of some of the more important rules of behavior that God expects of humanity. http://www.religioustolerance.org/chr_10co.htm#img

[Honeykiss1974]

Originally posted by daoine
Thus the second point about how our culture views greek mythology. If I decide to worship money, do we have to remove it from the government? What if I choose to worship the American flag? Does it go too? The president? [If that's the case, can we all start worshipping corrupt politicians?] We all have the right to worship whatever we want - it makes your description of separation impossible to implement.

I'm reiterating myself, but the point is that money, flags, greek gods -- all of these things have primarily <i>secular</i> meanings within our culture -- religious meanings are secondary, and are to a select group. It has nothing to do with a majority/minority, and everything to do with how our culture developed. The 10 commandments do not share that same meaning -- they have no secular purpose; the sole purpose is the religious meaning.

The separation between church and state does not mean "take anything out that could be construed as religious to any human being" -- it is, by design, meant to allow people to feel free to worship whomever or whatever they want, and to prevent religion from directly influencing how the people are governed. In my eyes, that means that anything with a primarily religious purpose is not appropriate.

Well to avoid repetition, let's just agree to disagree on this issue because you and I have different views as to what constitues "a religion", especially if its based on what our society has deemed as being "secular".

[Honeykiss1974]

Originally posted by justamom
Well, not to offend any Christians, and not to start a whole other debate, but I for one believe anyone who holds a belief in God, (...and yes, I'll go out on a bigger limb and say my God may be known by many names to many different people) will find their place in Heaven.

What I find notable is the fact that these were given to the people BEFORE CHRISTIANITY EVEN EXISTED!

The Ten Commandments (a.k.a. Decalogue) are accepted by Judaism, Christianity and Islam as a summary of some of the more important rules of behavior that God expects of humanity. http://www.religioustolerance.org/chr_10co.htm#img

That truly is an ENTIRELY different thread JAM!

[Lil' Hannah]

I am an athiest. I feel alienated and uncomfortable when references to religion are pushed upon me by our government.

[Honeykiss1974]

Originally posted by blueGBI
Personally, I dont see what everyone is so angry about why the 10 amendments. Its not like the judge was saying, you have to believe in Jesus or in God. Most of the 10 commandments can be found in our laws. Legally, with the precedent set by the 1962 decision to take prayer out of school with by saying that it falls under separation of church and state, the state had the legal right to remove the statue.

(puts on flame-retardant gear)

I think alot of people have a problem with this statue because unlike most religions, Christianity is offending because the central teaching is that Jesus is the only way to the God. That offends because in most religions there are multiple ways to the Lord but there is only one way with Jesus. People like to forget it and get rid of all reminders of it. So I'm not surprised by the state of Alabama moving the statue and I expect to see more lawsuits and decisions with the intent to move any and all references to Christianity.

(/takes off flame-retardant gear)

Hmmm, you may be on to something!