Another Black Face Incident, This Time at UVA - Page 3

Blue Violet · #31 11-21-2002, 10:41 AM

Ok, Just to play devils advocate, not defending or trying to offend......

But I am wondering, is it really that bad? I mean they went as the two Williams sisters who are tennis stars. Maybe they are tennis fans and just wanted to dress up as their idols?
I had two friends who wore traditional African wedding attire and painted their faces dark for Halloween one year. They weren't making fun of it at all, they really thought the wedding outfits were pretty. So did we. And we did have a friend paint his face white and come as Eminem this year. We all thought it was funny. We didn't get offended.

Free speech? Does this fall under that at all? I dunno....just my thoughts.

sigmagrrl · #32 11-21-2002, 11:11 AM

The racist, insensitive behavior occurs when the black face is put on. There are some things you just cannot be, let's face it. I wouldn't put on white pancake makeup and go as Alanis Morissette. I can't dress up as her, even though I worship her! They can be Venus or Serena! Put the braids on, the whole thing. But leave off the blackface...DOESN'T ANYONE HERE KNOW ANYTHING ABOUT HISTORY??????????

DeltAlum · #33 11-21-2002, 12:41 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by sigmagrrl
The racist, insensitive behavior occurs when the black face is put on.

DOESN'T ANYONE HERE KNOW ANYTHING ABOUT HISTORY??????????

It's pretty obvious that the answer to your question is that some people do and some don't.

I think that the seemingly naive question, "Does it mean something?" says the same thing. A lot of people simply don't understand the history of the use of blackface.

The thing that troubles me in your post is the use of the term "racist." While it is entirely possible that these idiots meant some amount of disrespect, it is just as possible that they didn't. It's likely, I think, that they didn't understand that their actions were offensive.

If the latter is the case, calling them racist is pretty harsh. Stupid works. So does insensitive -- your other word. I don't even object to calling them morons, which someone else did, I think.

But, with any due respect to any "stupid, insensitive morons," I do find it terribly unfortunate, with all of the recent negative press about blackface, that these incidents continue. Of course, there is some amount of insulation from reality in the college atmosphere -- but this should be pretty hard to miss.

Now, just a quick comment on Robert E. Lee. My earliest study of Civil War confirms what Tom Earp mentioned above. While slavery was the catalist, the real issue was states rights. To put it simply, the South didn't want Washington telling them how to run their affairs -- economic and other. All of my readings about General Lee indicate that his decision to fight for the Confederacy was an agonizing one, and, as a West Point graduate, he nearly chose to stay in the Union Army.

In those days, however, loyalty to your state was more important in many cases than to the country. Obviously, that's changed over the years since -- but it's the way it was back then.

I believe that there was a huge amount of mutual respect, which was confirmed by the civility with which General Grant received Lee's surrender -- allowing the defeated army to retain their sidearms and keep their horses for the return home.

OK, just another DeltAlum digression. I'm finished.

Richard(SNU) · #34 11-21-2002, 12:58 PM

Back in the 80's one of my fraternity brothers showed up for a
Halloween party in his baseball uniform and blackface and said he was
Reggie Jackson. While I didn't think this was a particularly clever
costume idea I have difficulty believing that similar behavior today
could get you kicked out of school, let alone having your whole
chapter lose it's charter.

The Confederate flag issue is more complicated. It's the opposite
side of the debate over the American flag and flag-burning. The First
Amendment sets up a line of reasoning that goes something like this:
In this country there is no such thing as a "blessed iconography" and
by the same token there is no right to ban any form of iconography.
It was a pretty far-out idea 215 years ago and it still is when you
think about it.

Debates over symbolism can go on endlessly. I certainly don't see any
signs of this one ending anytime soon. I do feel bad for the
undergrads at places like UVA, who get hit hard by this issue. After
all, a "teachable moment" is being squandered by heavy-handed
punishment. Not that I'd do it any differently if I were the
administrator, of course. I don't envy anyone who has to sort through
a situation like this and try to "do the right thing".

madmax · #35 11-21-2002, 01:36 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by sigmagrrl
The racist, insensitive behavior occurs when the black face is put on. There are some things you just cannot be, let's face it. I wouldn't put on white pancake makeup and go as Alanis Morissette. I can't dress up as her, even though I worship her! They can be Venus or Serena! Put the braids on, the whole thing. But leave off the blackface...DOESN'T ANYONE HERE KNOW ANYTHING ABOUT HISTORY??????????

Is it ok for Michael Jackson to dress in whiteface?
Is Michael Jackson a racist?

Dionysus · #36 11-21-2002, 01:41 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by madmax

Is it ok for Michael Jackson to dress in whiteface?
Is Michael Jackson a racist?

That was an irrelevant question.

Honeykiss1974 · #37 11-21-2002, 01:42 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by madmax

Is it ok for Michael Jackson to dress in whiteface?
Is Michael Jackson a racist?

Not to defend that freakazoid Micheal Jackson, but he does not dress in whiteface. According to him, he bleached his skin lighter, due to a medical condition call Vitaligo, which is a loss of pigmentation in the skin.

librasoul22 · #38 11-21-2002, 01:48 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by madmax
Is it ok for Michael Jackson to dress in whiteface?
Is Michael Jackson a racist?

Is it okay for me to paint my hiney white and call myself madmax?

Hmm....

sigmagrrl · #39 11-21-2002, 01:49 PM

Actually, I said the "racist behavior". I didn't call her or them racist specifically, but it certainly falls under a similar category. I wonder how far of a jump would it be to start walking around, calling each other the "n" word to be "in character"? It's beginning of racist behavior. It would bother me equally if someone wore geisha makeup, or walked around holding the corners of their eyes up. It would bother me equally if someone black started "imitating" a Caucasian for kicks. It all falls under the same category of insensitive, but we cannot shy away from the fact that it is, in fact, racist BEHAVIOR.

DeltAlum · #40 11-21-2002, 03:22 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by sigmagrrl
Actually, I said the "racist behavior".

Point taken on the semantics.

I do think, or at least hope, that the intentions were not racist. My concern is that it's a strong label to apply his behavior in this particular case, whether intentionally or not, to someone none of us has met or knows.

So, I'll continue to grant the benefit of the doubt until it's proven otherwise, and we can respectfully agree to disagree.

sigmagrrl · #41 11-21-2002, 03:42 PM

Yes, these are my hopes as well.

Man, this whole incident just scares me though!

DeltAlum · #42 11-21-2002, 03:49 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by sigmagrrl
Yes, these are my hopes as well.

Man, this whole incident just scares me though!

On that, we agree.

UDZETA · #43 11-21-2002, 05:02 PM

I think what a big problem is people to do not think about their actions affect on others. Maybe they do not understand that people are going to take it as being racist. Some are not doing it to be racist but they do understand that it is hurtful to other people. Now it is a different case if they dress up in a rude and racist way. Would it be a big deal if a white guy dressed up in a mask of a black person? Is that any better?
I do not respect the actions of people who do such things but I also think in some cases the person is not trying to be racist.

IotaNet · #44 11-21-2002, 06:04 PM

To the Group -

I'm just curious about something. I have heard the issue of Blackface debated every way from Sunday on this board and others. I see posts asking "But what if we only did brownface?" and "But what if the people who did it didn't mean anything by it" and so forth.

Why can't people simply accept the answer ...

"Blackface has horrible historical connotations for Black People and we find it highly offensive. Please don't do it."

Is that so difficult to understand or accept?

FuzzieAlum · #45 11-21-2002, 06:14 PM

IotaNet, I absolutely agree. But from an administrator's standpoint, punishment of the group may vary depending on whether they were simply ignoramuses or out to cause offense. I think that's what people are mostly asking - if they do something offensive because they are dumb are sheltered, should they be punished in the same way as people who do something because they are trying to express racism? There's no question, thought, that SOME sort of action should be taken.