Wood

[mgdzkm433]

awwww, how sweet. . .silver has another b/f. . .hehehe.

just kidding. . .LOL

[Charle]

Watched TLC (The Learning Channel) last nite. Watched the Navy SEALs "candidates" go through their "Hell Week". The instuctors said that the sole purpose of the hazing ritual was to weed out the people who really didnt want to be Navy SEALS. Interesting concept huh? The people who really didnt want to be there quit and went home. No questions asked. The "instuctors" had the "candidates" perform menial tasks that had nothing to do with combat training. The only purpose of some of the tasks were to create confusion, instill the team work ethic, and to TOTALLY stress out the "candidate". Stuff like surf torture (submersion in hypothermia inducing water), boat pushup (Even after one of the members has passed out), sleep and food deprivation, and tons of abrasive sand on the body to rub the skin raw. Sounds like hazing to me. The instructors were qouted as saying that if a candidate couldnt hang thru "Hell Week" then he didnt want him in the brotherhood of the SEALS. Whats good enough for the Seals is not good enough for my organization? Who decides that? The SEAL candidates werent forced to stay. They could've left at anytime. Those that really wanted it stuck around. Did the very first Nave SEALS go thru “Hell Week” ? My Fraternities Founding Fathers didn’t go thru “Hell Week” either. But yet the SEALS see the purging process as necessary procedure. Does this ritual make the SEALS a better organization? Why cant my organization strive for the same level (or higher )of "brotherhood"?

[LXAAlum]

Last time I checked, fraternity pledges were being trained for brotherhood, not "simulated combat conditions" as the SEAL Hell Week does. I saw the special on that last night also. I don't see the same parallels you do. Also, when SEAL recruits are pushed to the absolute physical and mental limits, and even beyond, they do have trained medical professionals who ensure injuries are addressed. Funny, but I've never seen an ambulance or paramedic unit invited to a hazing activity...

While military training is meant to ensure that you will not fail during actual combat (in other words, die, and have several of your shipmates die with you), fraternity pledging is to teach members what it means to be a brother, the history of the order, etc....in most cases, as most GLO's teach in their rituals, to live their life by Christian ideals.

Military training and fraternity education both have goals in educating new recruits/members. But the outcomes, the intent, and the methods should not be the same.

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Don't be your brother's keeper; rather, be your brother's Brother.

[This message has been edited by LXAAlum (edited April 18, 2000).]

[LXAAlum]

Silver, just another quick clarification - Yes, I do believe letters should be earned - but the definition of "earning" is not the same as hazing. Earning letters means that you learn about your organization, what it means to other new members, brothers, and alumni, and how you fit in to the "big picture."

It also means to earn letters AFTER initiation - that you as a brother/sister/alumnus contribute just as much as new members, and, most importantly, that you try to live the ideals of your Ritual on a daily basis.

It does NOT mean that you subject yourself to humiliation, paddling, and other forms of physical and mental abuse. That is not brotherhood, it is subservience, and is 180 degrees out of the ideals of most all fraternal organizations. We become hypocrites when we try to defend hazing as a "positive experience." I've never heard anyone say they looked back on their pledge period as an "enjoyable experience" if hazing was involved. In fact, most people would say they became members "in spite of" the hazing.

[Charle]

Simulated combat conditions?.....I guess building a monument/shrine for the instructors is a battlefield task. Not being allowed basic hygienge is battlefied task? Istructors shovelling sand on candidates is not hazing? Is shoveling sand on someone a battlefield task? Hmmmmmm. Or does it build a brotherhood cohesion when under stress?. Hmmmmmmm. Interesting concept huh? Building teamwork when under stress. As for having medical personnell on duty for those sailors who are dangerously close to hypothermia, well that doesnt always happen. The medical personnell are not always around. The doctor showed up for about and hour then got back in his HUMVEE and left. I can speak from experience on that one. Hence the Rangers who died in of hypothermia in the Florida phase of Ranger School in 94. When i was in Ranger school i never saw a doc in the field. You obviously didnt watch the same program i watched if you didnt see the SEAL instructors actions as hazing. Hollering in a bullhorn is combat related? Oh i forgot, its called psychological warfare (yeah right) . Face it. Not all of the tasks that were showed on the show were "combat related". And niether were all of the tasks i completed in Ranger school "combat related". If you thought that they were then you are in an elevated state of happydom. They are tasks that are invented to make the "initiation" more difficult so they could weed out the less devoted. If they cant hang then they drop out. Plain and simple. The Seals are looking for special people just like my frat is looking for special people. Its not for everyone. recieving a "bid" for Seal training just entitles you to a invitation to be tested. Those who flunk, well thats on them. Masonory is the same way. Its not for everyone. There has to be techniques to weed out the unworthy. Like the instructors on the program said, if the candidates cant make it through "hell week" then they dont want them in the brotherhood of SEALs. I feel the same way about my Fraternity.

[mgdzkm433]

hmmmm. . .let's see here. . .Navy Seals. . .Fraternity. . .hmmmmm. Use a little common sense. The two aren't even close to being the same.

1) Shrine/Monument to instructor: Shows that the SEALS can use what they have around them to make any type of sturcture they might need to use. Dummys on the beach, so the SEALS won't be shot at, for example.

2) Personal Hygene: ummm. . .when they are out preforming "secret" missions or whatever, I hope they are more worried about getting their mission done than their hygene. If they are in the middle of battle or whatever, they aren't going to have time to think about hygene.

3) Shoveling Sand on one another: Proves that they can do what needs to be done to survive, even if it does hurt. SEALS coming in to shore from sea might need the training as to what the abrasive sand might feel like if they have to stay in shallow water for a while or on the beach for a while.

All these things are helpful in training them for battle.

Even so, come on! You are comparing Navy SEALS to Fraternity guys? SEALS are supposed to be TRAINED to withstand the elements and harsh conditions. They are supposed to be the biggest assests to our Navy! Fraterinity guys are just supposed to do community service, and that doesn't include invading Iraq and steeling the secret documents. SEALS are TRAINED military men. They KILL people if they have to. . .fraternity guys worry about what they are going to wear out on Friday night or their English grade or getting a fundraiser done.

I can't believe that you would even think of comparing the two. They are in NO way alike.

And for THEIR sake, I hope the SEALS know what it's like to be deprived of their hygene and what abrasive sand feels like before they go into a mission. . .they would never survive otherwise.

Beating a pledge or harassing him till he breaks does absolutely nothing. It in no way betters him for his fraternity. There is no use to it. . .it's pointless. Brotherhood? Who's your best friend from High School or Grade School? Did you beat each other up just so you could be "better" friends? Did you have to "prove" yourself to them? Beating someone or harassing someone to make them "stronger" or "better" or "appreciative" is the most STUPID thing I've ever heard of. These people are supposed to be your brothers! Would you beat your own brother? Would you harrass your own brother? WAKE UP!

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Mikki Gates
Delta Zeta Alum
Kappa Mu Chapter
Sigma Alpha Iota Alum
Eta Tau Chapter

"I would rather have thirty minutes of wonderful than a lifetime of nothing special."

--Julia Roberts
(Steel Magnolias)

Visit me at:
http://homepages.go.com/~dzkm433/index.html
and
http://www.calypso.com/dzkm433/welcomtomyworld.chtml

[Charle]

'''hmmmm. . .let's see here. . .Navy Seals. . .Fraternity. . .hmmmmm. Use a little common sense. The two aren't even close to being the same.
'''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''


I guess your concept of Fraternity is different than how my organization looks at it. Just like the Navy Seals or Masons say "maybe you arent right for the organization". My Fraternity looks at it the same way. Maybe you just arent right for the Frat. Example. If you cant be a SEAL you can still be a good sailor in the Navy and serve honorably. Well, the same rule applies. If you can be in my Frat , you can join a "paper" organization and serve honorably. Same deal. If you arent willing to have the dedication then we dont want you. Plain and simple. We arent interested in people who "worry about what they are going to wear out on Friday night or their English grade or getting a fundraiser done". Obviously your perception of dedication and committment is different than the Fraternity I am in. Dont feel bad. There are lots of people who dont make it. Dont get mad because our required level of committment is different than yours. Not everyone can be SEALs, Rangers, Airborne, Masons, Eastern Stars, or in my Fraternity.

[mgdzkm433]

What Fraternity are you in anyway? They don't care about grades, they don't care about fundraisers, they don't care about community service. . .what do you care about? Anything? Or do you just beat people and harass them? Is that what your fraternity is "all about?" I feel sorry for you if you feel that tourturing individuals just to see if they are worthy of YOUR fraternity is important. Hazing is illegal. Or do you not care about what happens to your fraternity if anyone turned you in? I guess you don't care if all your brothers who haze go to jail. IMHO you're not a brother to ANYONE if you don't care.

Yeah, it takes a "real man" to take a beating. You must be a "real man" because you got hazed. You must be a "real brother" too, beacuse you got the shit kicked out of you or was mentally harassed to see if you would crack. I stand by my previous statement. REAL brother (blood brothers) don't beat each other or harass each other to see if they are worthy of love or the title brother. If your fraternity is based on all of these things. . .I wouldn't WANT to join. I'm glad I'm an alum of TWO organizations that stand for something. Yeah, not everyone can be a Navy SEAL, but at least they stand for something, at least they do good. You haven't shown ONE thing you fraternity stands for, other than hazing. I'm sorry you frat is just a bunch of beer guzzlin' frat boys who don't know whether to scratch their watch or wind their butts. They just sit around and haze each other cause They think it's "cool" instead of doing something important. I'm sorry you didn't have a high enough GPA to get into a organization like mine. Or you didn't have respect for yourself or you didn't care about anything important. Not everyone can be good enough to be a AST, SSS, Delta, Zeta, Tri-Delta, or in MY sororities.



------------------
Mikki Gates
Delta Zeta Alum
Kappa Mu Chapter
Sigma Alpha Iota Alum
Eta Tau Chapter

"I would rather have thirty minutes of wonderful than a lifetime of nothing special."

--Julia Roberts
(Steel Magnolias)

Visit me at:
http://homepages.go.com/~dzkm433/index.html
and
http://www.calypso.com/dzkm433/welcomtomyworld.chtml

[Charle]

No. Not everyone has what it takes to be in my Frat. If you want to join,well you have to display a certain level of committment and dedication. If you dont want to join, well thats cool to. My fraternity is not based on numbers.

"Eight men thoroughly immersed in the true spirit are a far greater asset than eighty with lukewarm enthusiasm"

[LXAAlum]

Commitment and dedication to what? Like Mikki has stated, you don't care about grades, about community service, about anything, or so it seems.

Eight mean immersed in the true spirit - what is the true spirit? Ability to take physical punishment in order to be a member? What kind of self-esteem is that?

[LXAAlum]

Gee thanks Mikki, you took all the steam out of what I was going to say - but you do ask an important question that I'd like to add to:

What fraternity do you belong to? Would your Founding Fathers appreciate the hazing activities? Do they tie into your organizations ideals? Not likely. Would your national organization (if you have one) condone the activities you are so proud of?

Charle, you also stated at one point that you "hated" the experience, yet you still went through it. Later, you stated you do not "give" wood now - why not? If you think it was so beneficial in hind-sight, and you believe in it so strongly, why are you not participating in it directly now? And, again, the question I'd still like to see answered: would you take accountability if, God forbid, something went wrong with one of your chapter's activities?


------------------
Don't be your brother's keeper; rather, be your brother's Brother.

[mgdzkm433]

Not everyone has what it takes to be in an organization like mine. You have to prove that you can balance your life. You have to maintain a good grade point average. You have to show dedication to the orginization by participating in what we stand for: Philanthropy, Community Service, Furthering the Aims and Ideals of our Founders. You have to show respect, both for ourselves and for others. You have to show Commitment to all of the things listed above. I'm sorry you didn't make the cut in an organization like mine, but that's ok, you can settle for a mediocre frat that relys on wether their members can walk the day after their beatings. Not everyone has the good qualities I've listed, it's ok. There are organizations out there that will take you based on your ability to guzzle beer upside down from a keg. Don't worry, you'll do just fine in that kind of an organization. So far you have proved nothing to anyone other than you are a member of a frat that hazes. You have not stated anything that would give the impression that your organization is dedicated or committed to anything. You even have to hide the name of the Frat. because you KNOW that it is a disgrace. You've failed to prove that your organization is a worthwile organization. I'm beginning to believe that you aren't even IN a fraternity. You can't tell the name, you can't give us aims and ideals, you can't tell what your frat is dedicated or committed to doing. . .hmmmmm. . .I don't think you're a member of anything. If you are. . .prove it!

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Mikki Gates
Delta Zeta Alum
Kappa Mu Chapter
Sigma Alpha Iota Alum
Eta Tau Chapter

"I would rather have thirty minutes of wonderful than a lifetime of nothing special."

--Julia Roberts
(Steel Magnolias)

Visit me at:
http://homepages.go.com/~dzkm433/index.html
and
http://www.calypso.com/dzkm433/welcomtomyworld.chtml

[Charle]

Kool. Did you have a bake sale also while you were pledging? lol

[mgdzkm433]

did you have spank each other and when it was your turn to get spanked say "You're my daddy! You're my daddy!"

[Charle]

Now , now. Calm down little lady.