Let's get spiritual..

[Dionysus]

Originally posted by Eclipse

Last point, because this is getting long, someone asked the question about people who haven't had an opportunity to hear about God. I believe we are all born with a God consciousness and that only God can fill it. I think that if someone has truly been on a search for God but did not get an opportunity to hear the Gospel God rewards that. He does, however, expects Christians to "go and make disciples of all nations."

This was discussed in my church community group a while back. According to one of the members, who studies theology, there is only one little section in the world where the word of God has not reached. I forgot whats it's name, however I know it is four numbers, meaning the lattitude and longitude of that area.

[KSig RC]

Originally posted by Eclipse
Interesting thread. I am a Christian and as a song that I love says "that means I'm far from perfect, simply redeemed."

I believe that the Bible is the inspired word of God--that he breathed life into the words and while allowing an individual's personality and experiences to shine through. I believe that the Bible is 100% true in it's original languages and to have a full, true appreciation of the Word you must understand it in it's original languages.

I can appreciate this on many levels, although I disagree with how strict you are on this, but that's just personal opinion/faith-based. For instance, in any language the Bible infers the value of pi to be three ("a circle thirty cubits around, and 10 across") - Do you mean that you believe everything originally written as the Old and New Testament was true, and may have been lost and/or changed by human error along the way? Just making sure I get where you're coming from - this way makes more sense to me, but that's purely subjective.

Originally posted by Eclipse
I am probably what some of you would call one of those "Bible Thumpers/Pusher, etc because I evangelize with my church. I also feed the hungry, provide clothes to the homeless and do other "good deeds", but I believe that the most important gift that you can provide to someone is the gift of salvation. If I knew someone was killing themselves with drugs, about to jump off a tall building, etc. I would feel like it was my duty as a person to stop them. Same thing about salvation.

Again, I vehemently disagree with you here, but your argument is cogent and makes sense from the level you're looking at it.

Originally posted by Eclipse
I believe that those who consider Jesus a "good man" or a "good teacher" only have fooled themselves. He said things like "I am the way, the truth and the life. None come to the Father except through me." and "I an my Father are one." If he was not God, these things are an insult to God and would put him in the company of Jim Jones and David Koresh, not a good teacher.

There have been many men that have said things similar to the claims made by Jesus - what exactly has convinced you that he is the Messiah? I think that's the root of what this thread would be, to me - you seem very strongly religious, what provides you with the certainty you have in your faith? How can you be sure that you're not fooling yourself, much like you think non-Christians do? I think these questions are the more important to those that don't necessarily hold your viewpoint, for our purposes of discussion here.

Even if it's just 'blind' faith - which would mean taking one hypothesis as fact, and using it for the basis of other inferences - I'm interested to understand how your faith works. I'm not from the south, and midwestern religion (especially protestant churches) tends to be less in this vein.

On a separate note - what are your feelings on issues such as evolution, etc?

[Dionysus]

Since a lot of GLO's are founded by Christian, Jewish, or other religious priciples, has that ever altered anyones decision on joining a particular GLO? Both of the GLO's I've been in were founded on Christian principles, however I have had several atheist and Jewish sisters/brothers. It would seem to me that if I was of non-christian belief and I found out that the GLO I wanted to join was founded on Christian beliefs, that would be somewhat of a turn-off to me. Same case with the vice-versa.

Totally unrelated to the above, but it does have to do with sprirituality. Being "saved" or "borned again" is a big thing in Christianity. Has anyone ever gotten "saved" and then backslid to your old ways or known someone who has? According to scripture, what would happen to that person, spiritually?

[Eclipse]

Originally posted by KSig RC


I can appreciate this on many levels, although I disagree with how strict you are on this, but that's just personal opinion/faith-based. For instance, in any language the Bible infers the value of pi to be three ("a circle thirty cubits around, and 10 across") - Do you mean that you believe everything originally written as the Old and New Testament was true, and may have been lost and/or changed by human error along the way? Just making sure I get where you're coming from - this way makes more sense to me, but that's purely subjective.

hummmm.....I'm not aware of your statement about the Bible saying the value of pi is 3, so I can't speak on it. Maybe I'll do some additional research and get back to ya! To answer your question, yes, that is exactly what I believe.

There have been many men that have said things similar to the claims made by Jesus - what exactly has convinced you that he is the Messiah? I think that's the root of what this thread would be, to me - you seem very strongly religious, what provides you with the certainty you have in your faith? How can you be sure that you're not fooling yourself, much like you think non-Christians do? I think these questions are the more important to those that don't necessarily hold your viewpoint, for our purposes of discussion here.

Even if it's just 'blind' faith - which would mean taking one hypothesis as fact, and using it for the basis of other inferences - I'm interested to understand how your faith works. I'm not from the south, and midwestern religion (especially protestant churches) tends to be less in this vein.

O.K. with out getting into another dissertation My believe first starts with there is a 'creator' of this all. I was raised Christain so my journey started here. I did however, reach a point in my life where I questioned the validity of the Bible and agreed with, in some sense the "all paths lead to the truth" idea. The more I read the Bible the more I saw that there were few (if any) gray areas and I had to make a choice. Jesus fulfills the requirements of the Messiah from the Old Testament, but of course that means that you have to believe the O.T. Faith is an inner/heart thing, but faith is being strengthed by archeological (sp?) facts.

On a separate note - what are your feelings on issues such as evolution, etc?

I believe that God did create the world in 6 days, but I don't know how He classified "days" and that during that time, many things could have happened including some forms of evolution. I don't believe, however, that we evolved from apes. If we did, why are there still apes? I also don't believe in the "big bang theory". I mean, there was a spontaneous combustion and then there was "life"? And from this one cell creature we have flowers, birds, dogs, people? That takes a bigger leap of faith than Christianity to me!

[KSig RC]

Originally posted by Eclipse
Jesus fulfills the requirements of the Messiah from the Old Testament, but of course that means that you have to believe the O.T. Faith is an inner/heart thing, but faith is being strengthed by archeological (sp?) facts.

OK - This is all for discussion purposes, by the way, I agree with much of your core values set, I'm just trying to get an understanding . . . But what archeological facts support the New Testament? No Jesus-era relics can be verified as authentic, although there is proof of a man Jesus, born near the date supposed. I just don't see the proof of his being messiah - and so . . .

Originally posted by Eclipse
I don't believe, however, that we evolved from apes. If we did, why are there still apes?

OK - that's your belief, I won't try to change that. But for the record - the theory (and it is just that, a theory) of evolution isn't mutally exclusive - just b/c one species has evolved into another, doesn't mean it will no longer appear . . .

Originally posted by Eclipse
I also don't believe in the "big bang theory". I mean, there was a spontaneous combustion and then there was "life"? And from this one cell creature we have flowers, birds, dogs, people? That takes a bigger leap of faith than Christianity to me!

Big bang theory is definitely up for debate - that's just the prevailing theory, centuries ago it wouldn't have been heliocentric, I'm sure we'll come up with something better as we go . . . But if you look at the above quote about OT conditions for being the Messiah, and archeaological evidence, I'll have to disagree with your conclusion about the sizes of our respective leaps - but isn't that why the world's great, huh?

[MooseGirl]

I'm really enjoying this thread and how most people can share without being mean.

Well, I was born Catholic, and was raised that way til I was 9. Then bounced from church to church til I was 13/14. Those churches were non-denominational, charismatic, etc. Also visited Baptist churches. At the first church after being catholic I was "born again" I never felt it tho and felt confused and left out when everyone else "spoke in tongues"....so I just faked it [besides their premise was that the holy spirit came upon the apostles which enabled them to speak foreign tongues----it's since been studied by linguists showing that these christians practicing glossolalia are NOT speaking a language...mostly saying repetitions]
Church was a place for me to belong since I was a geek at school. I was at the point of attending services 3 times a week plus youth night. But then I just left...I wasn't getting anything out of it.

Now, I consider myself agnostic. I think there is something there...god, goddess, singular or plural. who am I to say what it is? I believe that Jesus existed and that he did perform miracles...but that doesn't make him son of a god(although it is possible). I believe the bible was written by men....i've been told (by a Prof) that Genesis alone was written by at least 3 authors (shown through research--and by more than one person)

I believe in evolution - we are not descended from apes, but we have a common ancestor. Really now, look at the tremendous similarities between us and chimps. I also think this does not have to conflict with the Creation theory either since The Bible does not state how long a day is to God ; a day to god could be 100 yrs to humans.

I believe that the afterlife is whatever we think it is (kind of like that Robin Williams film "what dreams may come')
I also believe in reincarnation.

I believe in a lot of stuff....In one course I took(myth in literature) my Prof believed that ppl today are just looking for something to believe since the Industrial and scientific revolutions took religion as it was known away from many. That's why recently there has been a resurrgence of traditional religions as well as New Age spirituality and other outlets for ppl. Its human nature to want to know where we belong and how we, as a people, came here

any way, that's my opinion. BTW i didn't capitilize many words just cuz I'm lazy, not from disrespect.

[SigmaChiCard]

I don't believe, however, that we evolved from apes.

An article in the New York times today says that a 7 million year old skull was found that is of human lineage (hominid)...with suggestions of Human facial complexity and a ape-like braincase. Evolution is a hard battle to fight when you don't believe in it (or don't want to).

[justamom]

I honestly don't know WHAT I am. I have my own religion I guess.

St Thomas Aquinas-It's better to believe- if you die and heaven and hell don't exist no problem you'll never know. If you die and lived without thought of God and his teachings-YOU IN BIG TROUBLE MAN! Opinion on those who doubt the existance of God- The stronger faith is to those who queston and search for reasons to believe in the existance of God and return a believer than to follow without conviction and never question at all.
Logic theory-Compared the universe, a well ordered system, to a machine. All machines have an inventor therefore the universe must have a creator.

Yes simplified because it's from 25 year old memory.

What do I believe?
I believe in God, Jesus and the Holy Spirit ( the three leaf clover)
Saints can and do intercede for us---miracles
Heaven and Hell (devil and agents of the devil)
This is where I vere off course
Karma!!!!!!!!!!!!! BIG TIME BELIEF
Soulmates
I HOPE reincarnation
How you live your life is more important than what church you attend (or don't attend)
The soul is energy if you die with positive energy you will be drawn to the purest form of energy (heaven) Otherwise you return and learn the next lesson.
Souls that can't or won't leave and being able to communicate with them.
Some people have their hell on earth

I know some of these are at odds with each other, but this is it-can't explan it-don't need to defend it.
When the kids were little it was pure Catholic teachings all the way. They need to have their own journey.

[DeeGeePee]

Originally posted by SigmaChiCard
Here's a question....Does going to church prove any point toyou whatsoever? I'm not saying here's no point....many learn fromit as I hope they should.....but the cathli church conflicts with too many of my philosohies and so I leave frustrated and antagonized.

This is a question that I have asked myself. CHurch has veered so far from what God intended it to be. The reason that there are so many denomination is not God's work, but man being selfish and wanting to do things their way. The Catholic chruch, way back when, wanted power that was not divine. They dictated so many rituals and exact ways of doing things. People still lacked that spiritual connection directly with God. So other denominations came about, Lutheranism, Protestantism, Baptists, Methodists, Seventh Day Adventists, etc. Everybody is so divided, and church is so...showy nowadays that the personal connect is still lost in may cases.

I think that too much we end up being "religious" as opposed to "spiritual". Meaning that when your religious, you are ALL into the church and church functions and whatnot, but you don't pray and TALK to God. Then there are those that are spiritual, very intuned with God, they pray, read the Bible, and lead a Godly life. I think that its more important to be "spiritual" than "religious", because, God wants you to be intimate with Him, not an organization or a pastor, HIM. I'm not saying church is completely useless, because He does say in the Bible to congregate with fellow believers, but at the same time, Too often church leaves me spiritually lacking. I get more from just talking to people about God than I do going to church. Too much tim eis spent on stupid stuff. And a lot of times, the church is full of people who sin all week, come to church, get all happy, then leave out talking bout the lady with the orange bird on her hat. WHAT??? I mean, no one is perfect and we won't be for a while, but come on.

At the church I go to know, its...okay, but I don't feel anything there. Not saying I'ma give up on church, but I need to find one where I FEEL God.

[KSig RC]

Originally posted by justamom
Logic theory-Compared the universe, a well ordered system, to a machine. All machines have an inventor therefore the universe must have a creator.

Ahhh, the first point I can actually relate to . . . (thanks JAM)

It's all enthalpy and entropy, thermodynamic stability and natural order. I feel that when you try to find your religious niche, this sort of 'fitting God into the universe' approach works faaaaar better than 'fitting the universe into God'. Evolution will suddenly WORK(!) if you just let your belief structure work within the frame of the world, and not the other way around.

I have serious problems understanding the Deus Ex Machina form of religion . . . but it has just as much a chance of being 'correct' as anything else, I suppose, just not for me.

[Dionysus]

TTT

[SigmaChiCard]

again with post revival

my question was of the story of job - i've always had a problem with it.

The question: Why did God feel he needed to prove to Satan that Job was the most righteous?

I know it's a story, but it terrifies and depresses me. Essentially, God says, oh look at Job, he's so great, Satan says - if you tested him, he'd break, God tests him...Was God being a little insecure there?

I was too drunk when I wrote the post initially to have made my question clear.

[valkyrie]

There was a user named DeeGeePee? Now that's something I could see IHQ commenting about -- who wants to be associated with PEE?

[GeekyPenguin]

This is a really interesting thread from before my time on GC. Somebody commented about the issue of "denominationalism" in Christianity, which I think is really interesting and fascinating. One of my best friends in the world will not consider me a Christian (I'm a Catholic) because I don't believe in salvation by faith alone. I really feel like the issue of denominationalism is a particularily Protestant and fundamentalist issue - or maybe I should say evangelical? I don't know of any Catholic or Orthodox churches that place a heavy issue on it.

[RACooper]

Originally posted by GeekyPenguin
This is a really interesting thread from before my time on GC. Somebody commented about the issue of "denominationalism" in Christianity, which I think is really interesting and fascinating. One of my best friends in the world will not consider me a Christian (I'm a Catholic) because I don't believe in salvation by faith alone. I really feel like the issue of denominationalism is a particularily Protestant and fundamentalist issue - or maybe I should say evangelical? I don't know of any Catholic or Orthodox churches that place a heavy issue on it.

It'd be one of those faith issues (along with alot of others) that was floating around in the Christian faith prior to Constantine's recognition of the faith - and one revived during the Reformation.... it could be argued that the theory is faith based; just as it could be argued that it was political... after all the Reformation was as much about faith as it was politics (if not more so) and rejecting the theory that salvation comes through the Church and instead through the Bible is a very direct way of splitting from the Church.... but then again this would fly in the face of the reason why the Church maintains that salvation comes through them - mainly that they preceeded the Bible.