Dual Membership?

[SoTrue1920]

Originally posted by Shelacious


The question she was asking, I guess: do the "rules" prohibit you as an Alpha Gam from joining Zeta without "depledging" or "denouncing" your Alpha Gam membership?

Hey Shel, wanna follow me around and be my interpreter for the rest of my life?

This is what I was essentially getting at, and it seems that it's boiled down to the fact that since the NPHC isn't a regulatory arm, the decision is left up to the discretion of the individual NPHC member organizations.

[FuzzieAlum]

Technically, NPC isn't a regulatory arm, either. What it does have are "unanimous agreements" - that is, every NPC sorority agreed to them, so it's not as if it's being forced on member sororities unwillingly. (For example, they all agreed that joining more than one NPC group was bad, and that high school sororities were a bad idea.)

[SoTrue1920]

Originally posted by FuzzieAlum
Technically, NPC isn't a regulatory arm, either. What it does have are "unanimous agreements" - that is, every NPC sorority agreed to them, so it's not as if it's being forced on member sororities unwillingly. (For example, they all agreed that joining more than one NPC group was bad, and that high school sororities were a bad idea.)

So this brings up a related question: is it time for the NPC/NIC and NPHC to get together and collaborate on certain regulations -- like this one, for example?

[FuzzieAlum]

Well ...

Not to pick on the men here, but it seems to me that the women of the NPC have more agreements than the NIC men do. Like the women want to get together and find one way they all like, and the men of each fraternity want to go their own way. (Maybe it's just because there are more NIC groups than NPC, or maybe it's a gender thing!) I don't know how it works in the NPHC - do the women's orgs ever feel like the men push them around (since there are 5 to 4 anyway), or keep them from agreeing? Plus there is such a difference in terminology and tradition - for example, see the thread where a pledge forum was proposed, and the NPHC members thought, "Wait, pledging is banned," and NPC/NIC groups were like, "Huh?" I would imagine if all three groups got together, the only thing they would agree on would be, "Hazing is bad." (That and "Greek is good.")

Of course, maybe that's also an argument for an umbrella group, so we all understand each other better. So that NPHC women know that just because NPC groups "pledge," that doesn't mean that we support hazing. So that NPC women understand that you rush one NPHC group, rather than going to a complicated series of parties at all four. So your average NIC member can name the NPHC men's groups. Basically, so we support each other instead of (most of the time) ignoring each other.

And I would say that such a group should include the NALFO (http://www.nalfo.org/), too, and an Asian or MCGO council if they are ever created.

[Finer Woman10-A-91]

FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE

Wednesday, April 03, 2002

CONTACT: Peter Smithhisler, Vice President for Media & Community Relations
3901 West 86th Street Suite 390
Indianapolis IN 46268
317.872.1112
317.872.1134 fax
pete@nicindy.org

Richard Lee Snow, Executive Director
2322-24 North Broad Street
Philadelphia PA 19132
215.228.7184
215.228.7181 fax
executive_director@kappaalphapsi.com

Joint Meeting of the Council of Presidents and the North-American Interfraternity Conference Leaders of the National Pan-Hellenic Council's (NPHC) Council of Presidents (COP) and the North-American Interfraternity Conference (NIC) met in the Nation's Capitol on Wednesday, March 27, 2002 to identify strategies for improved communication between the two organizations, to commit to collaborative educational efforts on behalf of fraternities, and to build a solid partnership between the two organizations.

"We had a very successful meeting," said Jon Williamson, NIC Executive Vice President. "It was important for us to express our deep commitment to collaborating with the Council of Presidents to achieve a working partnership between our two organizations," he continued.Mr. Richard Lee Snow, Executive Director of Kappa Alpha Psi Fraternity, Inc. shared that "It was a much needed meeting. It is extremely important that NIC fully understand our structure, especially as it relates to our Council of Presidents and their authority over the NPHC

National President and Board. National Presidents Howard L. Tutman, Jr. (Kappa Alpha Psi) and Lloyd J. Jordan, Esquire (Omega Psi Phi) clearly expressed the concerns of COP and offered suggestions on how we can work together in the future. "

The leaders agreed to:

- Be pro-active in preventing a repeat of the inappropriate social behavior by some fraternity members, including those actions such as black-face and mock slavery depictions.

- To develop a philanthropic event to be co-sponsored by
NIC and NPHC chapters on several campuses.

- Identify existing educational models that promote
understanding and respect among our fraternal organizations.

- Collaboratively develop educational materials and public
relations guides prior to Halloween 2002.

- Identifying meaningful roles for NPHC members in the NIC
structure.

- Hold a news conference with the leaders from other fraternal umbrella organizations to call upon the current undergraduate members of fraternities and sororities to act in accordance with their fraternal values in social settings.

In addition, leaders from both organizations will again assemble in
Washington DC on Monday, May 13, 2002 to continue the discussions.The Council of Presidents is comprised of the titular heads of the nine traditionally Black Greek-Lettered Organizations that make up the National Pan-Hellenic Council. They collectively represent 1.4 million college-trained individuals throughout the United States and abroad.

The North-American Interfraternity Conference membership is comprised of 66 Inter/National Men's Fraternal Organizations with a mission to advocate, promote, and enhance the excellence and effectiveness of the men's college fraternity movement. The organization represents over 5 million alumni.
-30-

[FuzzieAlum]

OK, I take that all back about men not working as well together as women! They're definitely beating us to the punch here!

[NeonPi]

Interesting discussion everyone ....

I would probably say one might find it challenging to be a member of both a NPC and NPHC group at the same time. As has been noted, there are different characteristics to both, and one only has much time in day, eh?.....

Now, there have been situations where a NPHC/NPC member (like SoTrue1920) may be in a city where there are no NPHC grad chapters or collegiate chapters from her own group. In many cases, these members get involved with the Alumnae Panhellenic, become a 'social' member of an different NPC alumnae chapter, and in some cases, even become advisers to an different NPC group. (Or like me - volunteer as the Panhellenic Adviser since there was no AOII collegiate or alumnae chapter here in Winnipeg).

I think we all agree that our sisterhood is special, regardless of NPHC/NPC, etc., and that is the important thing! That's why we all love GC!

As for the official answer to the 'question', I have reviewed NPC Green Book, and found nothing one way or the other - it only reviews joining more than 1 NPC group. I have submitted this question to my campus NPC Area Adviser. She too was intrigued by the 'question', and feels that, as all of you have, that it is an important one for review for all umbrella groups.

Interfraternally,
Shala

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
AOP - KL
U of Manitoba Panhellenic Adviser
President, Canadian Interfraternal Assc.

[SoTrue1920]

Someone must have been reading my mind. Thanks Soror for posting this. It'll be interesting to see what comes out of these meetings.

[SoTrue1920]

Shala -

Thanks for the perspective (and for reviewing the NPC Green Book)!

[Finer Woman10-A-91]

Originally posted by SoTrue1920
Someone must have been reading my mind. Thanks Soror for posting this. It'll be interesting to see what comes out of these meetings.

Anytime Soror...anytime!

[equeen]

While there is no official or written rule on belonging to both an NPC and NPHC GLO, I would think that a woman would prefer to pledge her allegience to only a single organization - after all, it's a lifelong committment! And I imagine involving one's self in any given GLO's activities would be quite enough for any lifetime.

But that's just my opinion.

Here's what I've experienced. As always, my POV is that of a non-NPC and non-NPHC greek. My experience is of an up-&-coming national GLO on a very greek campus.

The act of establishing my sorority at my alma mater made my sorority a national entity, from a local. As far as the university is concerned, we are a student organization with the focus sisterhood among women in technical studies (since we are not affiliated with NPC, NPHC, or any other "umbrella" org).

The current NPC advisor at my alma mater was moved to comment that according to NPC rules and regs, any NPC woman could rush and join our sorority, however because of our rules, that wouldn't happen. (Her background is law, so I'm not surprised she commented on that technicality. ) There have been a few instances when a young lady already pledged or a member of an NPC sorority will enquire about our sorority, and then decline their interest after finding out that we don't initate women who are already committed to, or members of, another GLO.

Before my sorority was well-established on campus, there were many women of color who showed quite a bit of interest in my sorority, thinking that we were special-interest/honorary. Many were on the verge of pledging their candidacy, when they simply lost all interest, and were very tight-lipped about why. I was in charge of Rush at the time, and was baffled beyond imagining. (This was long before I educated myself on the nuances of all greek like. ) Understanding began to dawn on equeen when I found nearly all of these women, several semesters later, sporting letters of NPHC and CNHL sororities.

Official rules and regulations aside, I suppose it comes down to how (a) a group defines its membership, and (b) how it perceives the membership of other sororities/fraternal organizations.

[Kimmie1913]

Originally posted by dardenr
We're all here to learn.

If anyone has any specific resources that they feel I should turn to, feel free to send me a private message with some starting points.

In turn, I can direct anyone who is interested to the specific wording of Title IX.

peace

Could you please send me to the specific section of Title IX where it defines the term social fraternities and sororities. I see them mentioned and requirements placed as to how they qualify for exemption (i.e. being tax exempt under 26 USC 501a) but I have not found an actual definition of the term social v. service fraternity in the statute.

Also, could you please explain how APO or GSS having single sex chapters on many campuses does not violate Titile IX if you are not exempt from it. I would think that any female student denied memebership in APO on a campus with an all male chapter would then have a cause of action, regardless of the existance of a GSS chapter since they are two unique and distinct organizations.

[SoTrue1920]

Originally posted by Kimmie1913


Could you please send me to the specific section of Title IX where it defines the term social fraternities and sororities. I see them mentioned and requirements placed as to how they qualify for exemption (i.e. being tax exempt under 26 USC 501a) but I have not found an actual definition of the term social v. service fraternity in the statute.

Also, could you please explain how APO or GSS having single sex chapters on many campuses does not violate Titile IX if you are not exempt from it. I would think that any female student denied memebership in APO on a campus with an all male chapter would then have a cause of action, regardless of the existance of a GSS chapter since they are two unique and distinct organizations.

Hi Kimmie,

I provided a link to the Title IX Regulation in an earlier post in this thread. I think Alpha Phi Omega is excempt from the regulation because they're associated with the Boy Scouts of America (even though they're co-ed). The reason why that makes them exempt is mentioned in section 6B of the Title IX statute.

[Kimmie1913]

Originally posted by SoTrue1920


Hi Kimmie,

I provided a link to the Title IX Regulation in an earlier post in this thread. I think Alpha Phi Omega is excempt from the regulation because they're associated with the Boy Scouts of America (even though they're co-ed). The reason why that makes them exempt is mentioned in section 6B of the Title IX statute.

Thank you SoTrue, I appreciate you post and I did where you quoted the statute. But I don't beleive any college based fraternity or sorority meets the definition in 6B. Most likely any organization that is exempt receives their expemtion under 6A. I also beleive that this was dardenr's point. (I.E.- Those with exemption are soical sororities and fraternities and APO is not exempt as a service fraternity)

I asked for the additional information because this is what I see when I look at the statute-

1. Delta Sigma Thea Sorority, Inc. IS a Service Sorority.

2. I do not see in either 20 USC 1681 (the codification of Titile IX) or 26 USC 501 (the statute referenced in Title IX) a definition of waht is meant by social fraternity or sorority. There may be one there but the volume containing 20 USC 1681 has been taken out of my law library so I cannot check the annotation at the moment. I was hoping that dardenr could let me know where service or social fraternity or sorority was defined by law.

3. Outside of a clear defnition, the defining characteristic of exempt fraternities and sroroities is tax exempt status under 26 USC 501a. Delta, for example, is a 501c7 organization and therefore meets this requirement. I suspect this siswhy she is exempt from Title IX. I also suspect this is why most fraternities and sororities are exempt.

4. I am not clear how APO could have single sex chapters if they are not exempt from TItle IX and that is another reason I was looking for clarification. dardenr stated in one post that they are not exempt from Title IX.

Anyway, this is just some of my interpretation of what I have read and was looking for input from members of APO n so I could understand the basis for their reading of the law.

[naraht]

As has been pointed out before, 6B is only intended for "youth groups" like the Boy Scouts and Campfile. It talks about membership being primarily aimed at those below 19. which none of the collegiate Greek Letter Orgs are.

As for "social fraternities and sororities" that was left to the Deparement of Education (HEW at the time) to decide. Everyone know that the NIC and NPC groups qualified, but other groups were more nebulous. The eventual decision of HEW put the NIC, NPC and NPHC and similar groups into that category, but did not allow "recognition groups" (to use the terminology in Bairds) , honoraries and professionals into that group.

Alpha Phi Omega *did* try to get a Title IX exemption. We did not succeed. In order to keep the Fraternity from completely destroying itself, we came up with a compromise in 1976 that allowed chapters that wanted to go co-ed to do so. In 1986, the board changed that so that the only all-male chapters were ones that had remained all-male since before 1976, requiring that all new or rechartered chapters to be co-ed.

How are we able to do this given Title IX? The short answer is we can't. But the way Title IX is written, it is the *university* that is responsible for determining that all of its student groups fulfill the title IX requirements, not the organizations themselves either at the local level or at the (international) level. So what would happen if a woman *really* decided she wanted to pledge the Alpha Phi Omega chapter at Auburn (for example) and was denied, she would sue the school (and probably the fraternity as well, though not allowed under the Title IX rules) and then the school would decide to either fight it (and lose) or decide not to fight it and in either case would require their Alpha Phi Omega chapter to go co-ed or be derecognized. Since our chapters *require* school recognition to exist, derecognition by the school would force the chapter to be inactive.