9 Charged after girl kills herself over bullying

[Alumiyum]

Originally Posted by DaemonSeid

But...if the parent wasn't seeing results from the school she should have probably gone further up the chain of command.

it's amazing the stories I am reading this year of things happening in schools for MONTHS and parents have no clue until it's too late or they have a clue and they aren't IMO more diligent about getting results.

And Alumiyum...regardless of computers or phones or whatever...bullying is bullying.

I can easily tell you what people did in my time before all this happened and you still had the same results such as what you are reading now.

Nothing beats adults who get involved in such a way to head off courses of destructive behavior before they have these kinds of results.

Sometimes parents can't know. My parents didn't have a clue what school was like for me when I was in junior high because I sure as hell wasn't going to tell them. There's only so much they can do short of removing the kids from the school, and that's a hard and sometimes impossible decision (it's great if they can afford private school or afford to move, but that's not always possible). It's up to the school to fix a bullying problem taking place on the campus during school hours.

I understand bullying is always bad, but when the internet is involved it's impossible to escape. Gossip is easily spread by mouth but when Facebook, Myspace, IM, etc. are involved it can be absolutely impossible for the victim to escape, and it's all in writing for the entire world to see. It can feel like there's truly no escape.

[MysticCat]

Originally Posted by epchick

With that said, assuming this guy is no older than 18, it wouldn't be considered statutory rape. For it to be considered statutory, the age difference has to be over 3 years. Their age difference isn't enough to consider it statutory.

This is one of those things that varies from state to state.

[Prettyface08]

Originally Posted by deepimpact2

I have mixed feelings about this. It is getting really old to see stories like this. It would be better if school systems would take the initiative to do more about the bullying before it gets to this point. I fail to understand why it is okay to do something about it AFTER the fact, but no one feels it is serious enough to handle it at the time. smh

But I will say that as sad as this situation is, SHE chose to kill herself. I don't understand that thought process. Skip school. Don't go kill yourself because of bullies at school. We need more kids to just "man up." All this teenage fragility and angst is getting to be really old.

What if this isn't possible? I had a cousin who was bullied in the first grade and was told that if he didn't bring the bully $.50 he was going to be beaten up. My cousin is smaller than the kids his age and at such a young age how can one "man up". We only knew about it because I noticed a change in his behavior, it only stopped because his mom and her sister took action by going to the principal, the teacher, the bully's mom and finally THE BULLY. I always worry about him because he's so small and I know that it's easy for him to become a target, he's so little. Bullying really bothers me because I've seen how stressed out a child can be because of it.

I agree that this younger generation is kind of soft, but you don't know what another persons breaking point is. Just because you can take being taunted and teased doesn't mean that the next person can. This isn't new, it's just that most of the time we hear about it as a murder suicide. This young lady told her parents, her parents told the school and no one protected her.

[Prettyface08]

Originally Posted by Alumiyum

Sometimes parents can't know. My parents didn't have a clue what school was like for me when I was in junior high because I sure as hell wasn't going to tell them. There's only so much they can do short of removing the kids from the school, and that's a hard and sometimes impossible decision (it's great if they can afford private school or afford to move, but that's not always possible). It's up to the school to fix a bullying problem taking place on the campus during school hours.

I understand bullying is always bad, but when the internet is involved it's impossible to escape. Gossip is easily spread by mouth but when Facebook, Myspace, IM, etc. are involved it can be absolutely impossible for the victim to escape, and it's all in writing for the entire world to see. It can feel like there's truly no escape.

So SHE can't turn off HER computer? That part of her world she can control. No, it's not fair that she's not able to use facebook/myspace/whatever space....but she doesn't have to read it. At the very least she could have peace in her own home.

[knight_shadow]

And another:

Parents send their children to school hoping they'll be safe and protected. Sadly, more and more often, that does not appear to be the case. Bullying may have claimed the life of another North Texas youngster. Jon Carmichael took his own life Sunday after what some say was bullying by bigger classmates.

Jon Carmichael was an 8th grader at Loflin Middle School, which just opened two weeks ago. Those closest to the 13-year-old say he had been bullied for years.


http://cbs11tv.com/local/jon.carmich...2.1601157.html

[LegallyBrunette]

Originally Posted by epchick

If she consented to it, then probably not. It would just be like two people consenting to have sex.


I only know about the age difference thing because a friend of mine had to go through that in HS. She got pregnant with her bf's baby, and the mom tried to have him arrested for statutory. The police wouldn't do anything because there wasn't technically over a 3 year age difference. (she was 16, he was 19)

This is not the law in MA. There is no requirement for a three year age difference.

See MGL. c.265, s. 23. [Commonly known as the Statutory Rape Law]. Rape and abuse of child.

Whoever unlawfully has sexual intercourse or unnatural sexual intercourse, and abuses a child under 16 years of age, shall be punished by imprisonment in the state prison for life or for any term of years or, except as otherwise provided, for any term in a jail or house of correction. A prosecution commenced under this section shall neither be continued without a finding nor placed on file. (my emphasis)

Originally Posted by Prettyface08

So SHE can't turn off HER computer? That part of her world she can control. No, it's not fair that she's not able to use facebook/myspace/whatever space....but she doesn't have to read it. At the very least she could have peace in her own home.

Yes, she could turn off her computer, but my understanding is that the bullying was much more pervasive than that (including being followed home from school). Plus, I think it's important to remember that this poor girl was 15--an adult's reaction and ability to cope with internet harassment is likely to be more rational (or maybe not, IIRC, there has been at least one situation here on GC that has gotten out of hand and moved into real life).

[MysticCat]

Originally Posted by deepimpact2

We need more kids to just "man up."

Yes, if only those stupid kids would just act and think like adults.

Maybe after we can get all adults to do that we can start expecting it of kids.

[Prettyface08]

Originally Posted by LegallyBrunette

This is not the law in MA. There is no requirement for a three year age difference.

See MGL. c.265, s. 23. [Commonly known as the Statutory Rape Law]. Rape and abuse of child.

Whoever unlawfully has sexual intercourse or unnatural sexual intercourse, and abuses a child under 16 years of age, shall be punished by imprisonment in the state prison for life or for any term of years or, except as otherwise provided, for any term in a jail or house of correction. A prosecution commenced under this section shall neither be continued without a finding nor placed on file. (my emphasis)





Yes, she could turn off her computer, but my understanding is that the bullying was much more pervasive than that (including being followed home from school). Plus, I think it's important to remember that this poor girl was 15--an adult's reaction and ability to cope with internet harassment is likely to be more rational (or maybe not, IIRC, there has been at least one situation here on GC that has gotten out of hand and moved into real life).

Oh no, I understand that it was more pervasive than that and I think it's despicable...I was responding specifically to the "when the internet is involved it's impossible to escape," comment. Actually if you take my response in it's entire context it says that it's not fair to her. I just meant that at the very least she could have peace in her own home by not reading the stuff on the internet. If they CAME to her house, then that's an entirely different story.

[LegallyBrunette]

Originally Posted by MysticCat

Yes, if only those stupid kids would just act and think like adults.

Maybe after we can get all adults to do that we can start expecting it of kids.

Exactly.

Originally Posted by Prettyface08

Oh no, I understand that it was more pervasive than that and I think it's despicable...I was responding specifically to the "when the internet is involved it's impossible to escape," comment. Actually if you take my response in it's entire context it says that it's not fair to her. I just meant that at the very least she could have peace in her own home by not reading the stuff on the internet. If they CAME to her house, then that's an entirely different story.

Right. I understand your point, my point was that I just don't think it's very realistic to expect that a 15 year old would just ignore things being said about her on the internet for the sake of peace, especially in light of everything else that was happening. My apologies if I wasn't clear.

[Ch2tf]

Originally Posted by MysticCat

Yes, if only those stupid kids would just act and think like adults.

Maybe after we can get all adults to do that we can start expecting it of kids.

I agree that there is only some much rationality/"adult" thinking we can expect out of children/teenagers. And I am sure I'm more than slightly biased by the responsibilities (and in some cases lack there of) that I had as a teenager. That being said, we (society) shouldn't be double-dipping. If we can try kids in court as adults, then we should also be able to expect them to take on a certain measure of responsibility in their lives.


Not specifically talking about the South Hadley case, but someone in high school who is being bullied should be have some responsibility in reporting it, to a teacher, school administrator, and/or their parents, and the hope and expectation is that the adults do something about it. Unfortunately for Phoebe, the adults in her school failed miserably in their efforts to deal (not deal with it).

[DrPhil]

Originally Posted by Ch2tf

While times are new, and harassment and bullying come from all angles with the internet, facebook, etc., I also feel like teen fragility and angst are out of control. Coming from someone who was bullied as a kid (albeit in middle school and pre-internet), manning up was the only option you had. I know some of my teachers knew what was going on, but they definitely never addressed me about it, and to my knowledge they never let school administration or my parents know. Looking back, I should have told my parents and made it explicit to school officials, but the choice was either to "break down" or man up and do what I had to do.

I prefer "womaning up."

My siblings and I were both bullied and were the bullies at times from elementary school to middle school. It was very cyclical and often reflected what was going on in terms of our self-esteems. But, we also knew when we, as the bullies, went too far and were (as far as we could tell) seriously hurting someone (like when the person bursts out crying). We would stop because we didn't want to be responsible for really harming someone--we didn't care about our parents finding out.

With that said, it's a void morality on the part of the bullies (you can know when to stop doing something without being afraid of getting in trouble for doing it) and perhaps some fragility on the part of some of the kids being picked on. Much of the latter has to do with having an appropriate support system to buffer the effects of the bullying. If the school and/or parental unit didn't know or didn't act on this, they are DEFINITELY partly responsible for what happened. Children aren't even fully developed mentally and emotionally. Some of them can handle negative stimuli on their own but most can't. This is why they legally have to have school and parental supervision. The school and parental supervision failed on all levels.

***Disclaimer: This texting and Internet generation were born when people were doing less face-to-face interactions and more text and web-based interactions. When we were little, we left our bullies at school or on the bus. My bullies never even called my home phone--we didn't have cellphones. It ups the ante when bullies can get to you over the Internet and distribute information about you via text and the Internet.

***Disclaimer2: These bullies were chicken shit. I don't condone, but I understand if they randomly get their asses whooped over this. Also, the articles said they were attractive, cool kids who played sports--eh, maybe they photo poorly because their photos don't reflect that.

[Ch2tf]

Originally Posted by DrPhil

I prefer "womaning up."

Indeed.

[DrPhil]

Originally Posted by knight_shadow

And another:

Parents send their children to school hoping they'll be safe and protected. Sadly, more and more often, that does not appear to be the case. Bullying may have claimed the life of another North Texas youngster. Jon Carmichael took his own life Sunday after what some say was bullying by bigger classmates.

Jon Carmichael was an 8th grader at Loflin Middle School, which just opened two weeks ago. Those closest to the 13-year-old say he had been bullied for years.


http://cbs11tv.com/local/jon.carmich...2.1601157.html

This is a "contagion effect."

All of these kids don't have diagnosable and documentable mental and emotional disorders that contribute to their suicide response. Many of them have observed that suicide is a "quick fix" and (as is the case in many suicides, particularly for certain age groups and for females more than males) some of them may've been crying out and attempting suicide but no one found them and saved them before they killed themselves.

These are children, so I expect for them to be extremely short sighted, of little faith, and selfish (or even perceivably cowardly) in most endeavors. Therefore, when buffers are weakened or absent in their lives, it "makes sense" that more kids are choosing suicide when they feel there are no other quick fixes. Family only matters but so much for kids--kids get to an age where it seems as though they'd rather be liked by their peers than anything else. It is sad because fast forward a few years and they could've said what a lot of people say, which is "I remember when I was 10 and I was bullied--I was tormented. I was soooo depressed...thank God I got over that hurdle and didn't harm myself or others."

Suicide increases with age and is highest for those over the age of 50, so it's really interesting when suicide rates increase in the younger age groups. There are a number of explanations for this.

[33girl]

Originally Posted by Ch2tf

I live in MA and to my knowledge the name of her former boyfriend hasn't been given, so I'm not sure that either of the young men charged is him. That being said, it wouldn't surprise me if these boys aided the "mean girls" in some sort of set up scheme, say at a party with alcohol or something similar. Chances are however, the statutory rape charges are not going to stick/stand during the prosecution.

That would make a lot more sense. Thanks.

I know that back in my day I would have rather DIED than told parents or teachers about being bullyed - but it was such a different era. The computer is as much a part of these kids' lives as TV was ours - just turning it off really isn't an option unless you want to completely divorce yourself from society. As others have said, it's not like when you could come home, lose yourself in TV or radio or a book, and forget about it for an evening and steel yourself to face another day. It's like how a lot of grown people can't ever leave their job behind because of cell phones, PDAs & computers. Not only that, I think seeing it written down just makes it 100x more hideous.

[rhoyaltempest]

Originally Posted by deepimpact2

I have mixed feelings about this. It is getting really old to see stories like this. It would be better if school systems would take the initiative to do more about the bullying before it gets to this point. I fail to understand why it is okay to do something about it AFTER the fact, but no one feels it is serious enough to handle it at the time. smh

But I will say that as sad as this situation is, SHE chose to kill herself. I don't understand that thought process. Skip school. Don't go kill yourself because of bullies at school. We need more kids to just "man up." All this teenage fragility and angst is getting to be really old.

Comments like this are very insensitive and shows a lack of understanding. Just like adults some teens (and children for that matter) suffer from clinical depression (most don't even know it) and some folks were born this way, with an unbalanced brain chemistry that may not allow them to see things as rationally as you or be as positive as others. Such problems are made worse by environmental issues and poor nutrition, which we can all agree is greatly impacting adults and children in our society. Whether a choice or not, most people do not choose to committ suicide over such things so obviously something is wrong. Let's not invalidate an experience (which human beings love to do) just because we can't personalize it. Also, whether a child can "man up" or not will depend on these factors as well as their upbringing.