True or not?

[skylark]

^^^ They have fake SSNs and income taxes are taken out under that SSN. I've heard of people receiving their annual social security statements to find out that someone was working under their same SSN. Fake social security cards can be purchased on the black market, from what I'm told. That is why it is pretty hard to hold employers of illegals responsible since most illegal workers look like they have legitimate paperwork.

ETA: Even for illegal immigrants who aren't using fake SSNs, many still pay taxes under ITINs, I guess. I was looking for something else and found this article on how the "economic stimulus" plan is being tailored to make sure the illegals who filed taxes under ITINs don't get the refunds. A more explanatory article on the ITIN practice can be found here.

[SWTXBelle]

Argument by analogy is a logical fallacy. That's why you won't find much more discussion on the topic the way it has been presented here, Tom.

And I still believe you are obliged to follow the law, even if it is inconvenient for you. (Do you only follow those laws which are convenient? Even if they penalize you or stand in the way of you making more money?) Otherwise, you are in violation of the law, and can hardly claim that you are a boon to your adopted country. We have enough home-grown criminals (those who break the law). If we need to tweak immigration law, that is one thing. But a country which does not control its borders cannot have any sense of security. Laws need to be enforced - or we have anarchy.

And I'm okay with the idea that those who came to this country illegally and had to pay taxes will not get a refund. Play by the rules - or don't expect to be rewarded.

Mexico, probably the country best know for its citizens coming here, is NOT a poor country. BUT the wealth is not distributed in a manner which enables the majority of the citizens to do well. That does not mean that those citizens who are impoverished are entitled to break U.S. law. In fact, I will argue that things will not change if those citizens who are being most impacted by policies leave the country.

[DSTCHAOS]

It's safe to say that the average illegal immigrant isn't a tax payer, aside from sales tax.

There can be all sorts of guesses regarding paying taxes with fake SSNs or ITIN, but there's no consistent evidence of this. Even if there was evidence of illegal immigrants paying with fake SSNs, are they to be commended for having fake SSNs? Fake SSNs can be used to cheat our social programs and drain the system dry. Paying taxes is the last on the priority list when people are draining the system, just like American citizens with fake SSNs and who are draining the system aren't applauded.

I completely understand wanting a better life and not wanting to wait for the bureaucratized process of immigrating. However, laws don't cease to exist just because there are people breaking them or because many people break them for "understandable" reasons. An American citizen who shoplifts food to feed a family is still arrested and the punishment will be based on a number of factors but, chances are, there will be some type of punishment.

These other countries' laws and punishments aren't disposable, or easily dismissed by visiting or relocating noncitizens, so ours shouldn't be.

[Tom Earp]

Sorry to disagree, but illegal immagrants are getting health care, attending schools, and getting money from welfare.

So, where does this money come from?

Whether or not they have false IDs, is this not breaking the law?

Granted, they may pay sales taxes, but this is a small portion of money that goes to all of the other items they get.

Yes, Mexico has a lot of wealth and only a few have it, why should that make us the caretakers of the world?

Come to us and let us spend our money aiding you to live out of my pocket.

[MysticCat]

Originally Posted by Tom Earp

Sorry to disagree, but illegal immagrants are getting health care, attending schools, and getting money from welfare.

Remember, though, that when we're talking about children, if they were born here they are United States citizens, even if their parents are illegal immigrants.

[skylark]

The whole point of having laws is so that they deter undesired behavior. If the deterrent against breaking the law (being shipped back) isn't as bad as the reality of following the law (staying in an unsecure, impovershed state with little to no hope of something better), then why do we expect that people will choose to follow the law? Sure, it's easy to say that following the law is good in itself -- from our relatively privileged positioning in socioeconomic status. I tend to say that, too. I think back to times that I've taken the higher, ethical road instead taking an easier route and am proud that I played by the rules... but then again I was in a relatively privileged position to start with and had the option of following the rules. I wasn't in a position of starving to death or not having the ability to protect and provide for my children as a consequence of taking the high road.

I don't know, I think it is hard to put ourselves in such an incredibly different position and ask whether we would hypothetically make the ethical choice over the choice for a better life. At some point when there seem to be so many people in violation of the law, you have to ask yourself whether enforcing the law is going to be more expensive than revising it to make it easier to follow.

And I'm not sure how I feel on illegal immigrants not getting the refund. I tend to agree with you that it tends to reward people whose presence in the country breaks the law, but on the other hand isn't the whole point of the stimulus to give more to the people who are likely to spend it, thus reviving OUR economy? So wouldn't it hurt our economy more to not give them the stimulus refund? I'm just not sure I follow that the reasoning behind the refund changes whether you are here legally or illegally. I could honestly go either way on it, though.

[SWTXBelle]

The odds of being deported are very low - and many times, the deportee just heads right back. And I still don't believe that following the law is something that only the privileged are required to do. There are other ways to bring about economic change than immigration - and in fact, there are Mexican industries that are having to try and work with draconian Mexican immigration law to bring in immigrants, because they do not have enough workers for the industry! (I realize illegal immigrants come from all over, but I am most familiar with the situation in Mexico, being from Texas and having a brother in Texas law enforcement.)
It is also a slap in the face to those immigrants who DO follow the law, and deal with the paperwork and delay, to tell them that they are no better than someone who came here illegally. Many legal immigrants have no patience with those who thumb their noses at the law, and who can blame them?
As I posted earlier, I am all for discussing changing immigration law, but will never support amnesty. We need to make it easier for law-abiding immigrants to come, NOT reward those who will not follow our laws.