right/wrong

Originally Posted by CrimsonTide4

Bless your heart!!!

Jesus be a

That was my favorite toy!

[macallan25]

Originally Posted by DeltAlum

You have the right to remain silent.

If you give up that right, anything you say can and will be used against you...

Hazing is illegal.

You = fail

[jessiwannabe]

Thanks for elaborating. That's all I'm saying if the hazing doesn't hurt you in any shape from or fashion and demean you. It's okay, I can say go pull up all the information you can on my organization. That's not harmful to you I just want you to know your knowledge of what you are getting yourself into.

Originally Posted by jessiwannabe

It's okay, I can say go pull up all the information you can on my organization.

What organization would that be?

[REE1993]

Originally Posted by jessiwannabe

no some of that stuff you just named is harmful take the harmful shit out damn how many times do i have to say that shit. IF IT CAN HURT YOU OR DEMEAN YOU DON'T FUCKING DO IT IT'S YOUR CHOICE I'M NOT FOR THE HURTFUL PART DAMN JUST TELL ME A GOOD WAY THAT I ASKED FOR DAMN IT

Originally Posted by jessiwannabe

NOTHING WILL CHANGE IF NO ONE MAKES AN EFFORT TO I'm all for not hurting anyone one but tell me a good way to go about if you know so much

This person's posts make my head hurt.

[LPIDelta]

Some of the things you are talking about really aren't hazing--sometimes they get classified as such if there are consequences as a result of not completing the task. That is the difference between education and hazing. Its ok to ask new members to learn history--its another thing to ask them to do it under pressure or by memorizing many details. No one is going to get sued for educating members--they may get sued for going to extreme. I think we all recognize that.

Unfortunately, this is litigious society, and my experience has proven that if you give an inch, people will take a mile. This is why many things that seem harmless are classified as potentially hazing. For the record, I know its been said a million times, treasure hunts/scavenger hunts have been designated a potential hazing activity by FIPG (insurance), not necessarily the organizations themselves.

In addition--I was hazed and more than 14 years later I talk to none of my classmates or the people who hazed me on a regular basis. It did nothing to bond us for life, in fact, it created a great deal of friction and mistrust among the members of the organization.

OP, hopefully as you mature you learn how to think about such issues critically and come to understand this topic a little better without yelling.

[AlethiaSi]

I was hazed in an organization that i did not initiate into or follow through with new membering. I could not go through with that treatment, and then call those girls my sisters, and I know after I left, it got a whole lot worse.

In my sorority, we did things like scavenger hunts, etc but the sisters were always there and as new members, we learned the history, songs, sister (and new member info) rituals, etc. I am much closer to my sisters (obviously) than the girls that continued in the previous organization are with their sisters.
It wasn't easy, but that's due to the time constraints and learning about everything.

I think if you are in an organization that engages in hazing activities, it breeds more hazing (and that attitude) until you are caught or something awful happens. Perhaps this is something that is learned in time.

My hope for the OP is that this lesson is learned.

Also, spell check/proof read. It does a post good.

[jessiwannabe]

Just using a example of what could be considered as hazing. I'm not a part of one yet. I have had a lot of highschool experience with it. In highschool we had to make posters about our big sisters and bring them their favorite candy everyday. That's not harmful but it is hazing.

[jessiwannabe]

Well I see it as entering another family if it doesn't hurt me or demean me i'm okay with it what other method would you perfer to let someone prove to you that you are worthy of my colors and letters. I'm pretty sure you would not just let anyone one in would you. Sure grades and commuinty feed back is not enough some organizations don't recruit you go to them and ask them (what about me) remember organizations don't need you but they would like to have you if you fit the standards. Don't get me wrong bidding them in like cattle is not good either but how else would I know that this is what you want to do be and represent.

[DeltAlum]

I never will understand which part of "it's illegal" is so hard to grasp.

[macallan25]

Originally Posted by DeltAlum

I never will understand which part of "it's illegal" is so hard to grasp.

If you are going to tell me that beating someone with a 2X4 or killing them via making them drink too much is on the same level, in illegality, as having a study hall or a test of fraternity knowledge or cleaning the fraternity house or making pledge have a dress code...........then you are an absolute moron...and a naive one at that.

Don't be an idiot.

[DeltAlum]

Originally Posted by macallan25

If you are going to tell me that beating someone with a 2X4 or killing them via making them drink too much is on the same level, in illegality, as having a study hall or a test of fraternity knowledge or cleaning the fraternity house or making pledge have a dress code...........then you are an absolute moron...and a naive one at that.

Don't be an idiot.

I'm not telling you that. Your university administration and your lawmakers are. I'm not taking a position on whether they're right or wrong.

Your name calling doesn't fix anything. No matter what you say or believe, hazing is ILLEGAL, whether the definitions are right, wrong or indifferent.

I've been around this stuff for years as an undergraduate, an advisor and a division officer. Frankly, some people act like spoiled little wet behind the ears rich kids who, as near as I can tell, have no clue about how much trouble this stuff can cause. How's that for name calling? But this isn't a matter of who can yell the loudest and call people names. It's a matter of survival for not only our chapters, but the Fraternity and Sorority system as we know it.

I went through rush and pledging before this stuff was against the law, and frankly I doubt that you have any idea of what went on in that period. If you think that our brotherhood stronger, you're wrong. That's rhetoric instead of reality.

You can yell "naive" all you want, but some of us have a whole lot of experience that you (global you) don't and we can use that experience to come to logical conclusions that you don't have the background to even consider.

Times have changed, and the stuff that your daddys and I went through have to be memories -- or our chapters will be. I hope that you don't discover that the hard way, given present circumstances.

University administrations and state legislatures have decided that they have to stop hazing because little things lead to bigger ones and sooner or later someone gets badly hurt or killed. Maybe some have over reacted, but that's beside the point. They have the elected or appointed right to do that.

On both sides of the argument, it's the famous, "give them an inch and they'll take a mile" syndrome. Unfortunately, the cliche' is too true all too often.

Insurance companies have decided that because of the rules and laws that have been put in place, they won't insure chapters that don't obey those laws. Suits have been filed against everyone from chapter members, officers, advisors, nationals, house corporation members, university administrators and even parents. Even if you're insured, if you break the law or the rules, the insurance company isn't going to pay damages -- they're going to cancel the policy and run the other way. They have the power to do that, too.

Want to write a few million dollar checks out of the chapter treasury?

When are you all going to figure out that it doesn't matter whether study tables, quizes, scavenger hunts, house cleanups, sleep deprivation, lineups, hell week and the like may not be dangerous? Somebody in authority at the university, the legislature or the GLO have decided that they won't be tolerated. Did I mention that they have the power to do that until a court decides they're wrong?

That doesn't even touch on drugs and underage drinking.

The bottom line is this -- take a look at the threads in this forum. Check out how many chapters have been suspended. See how many university administrations are cracking down. Look at how many nationals have been backed into a corner and forced to crack down on chapters for things they might have overlooked in the past. Consider how insurance rates have skyrocked. More than that, look at how many lawsuits have been filed. Even worse, consider how many people have been hurt or even killed when little things went just one step too far.

Then, when your chapter is gone, consider who is the moron. Who is niave. It's not the ones who enforce or obey the rules, it's the ones who break them.

Don't be an idiot.

[MysticCat]

Originally Posted by DeltAlum

I'm not telling you that. Your university administration and your lawmakers are. I'm not taking a position on whether they're right or wrong.

Your name calling doesn't fix anything. No matter what you say or believe, hazing is ILLEGAL, weather the definitions are right, wrong or indifferent.

. . . .

DeltAlum, I think your post is very good. But I don't think it's a simple a thing as saying "hazing is illegal" and then arguing about whether it is or it isn't okay or is or isn't legal. The problem in a discussion like this is that there simply is no agreed upon definition of hazing. This is amply demonstrated in this and similar threads on GC.

The OP says some "hazing" is okay and then describes pre-initiation education, making posters and bringing actives candy. Others, like LPIDElta, point out that education is good and is not hazing unless there are consequences involved:

Originally Posted by LPIDelta

Some of the things you are talking about really aren't hazing--sometimes they get classified as such if there are consequences as a result of not completing the task. That is the difference between education and hazing. Its ok to ask new members to learn history--its another thing to ask them to do it under pressure or by memorizing many details. No one is going to get sued for educating members--they may get sued for going to extreme. I think we all recognize that.

But we don't all recognize that (depending on what "going to the extreme" means). In my fraternity and I'm pretty sure in others, one of the requirements of initiation is to pass a test on fraternity history and operations. Hazing? Apparently so, according to some.

Mac takes another perspective, questioning whether

Originally Posted by macallan25

. . . beating someone with a 2X4 or killing them via making them drink too much is on the same level, in illegality, as having a study hall or a test of fraternity knowledge or cleaning the fraternity house or making pledge have a dress code . . . .

Meanwhile, we have had numerous people at GC tell us it's hazing to use the term "pledges," as well as to forbid new members from wearing letters or doing vitually anything that makes a distinction between new members and initiated members.

It's easy enough to say "look at the official definition," but even that doesn't always help clear things up.

My fraternity defines hazing as "Any activity or situation that creates fear, mental distress, or undue apprehension in a member; harasses or degrades a member; or an activity which injures or threatens to injure a member’s physical or emotional well being; or any other activities which are not consistent with fraternal ritual or are considered a violation of the policies or regulations of a chapter’s educational institution, or state law." Our policy then gives a list of about 30 examples of what constitutes hazing.

The NPC, to give one example that applies to many GLOs, defines hazing in a similar manner: "any action or situation with or without consent which recklessly, intentionally or unintentionally endangers the mental or physical health or safety of a student, or creates risk of injury, or causes discomfort, embarrassment, harassment or ridicule or which willfully destroys or removes public or private property for the purpose of initiation or admission into or affiliation with, or as a condition for continued membership in a chapter or colony of an NPC member fraternity."

Meanwhile, though, my state defines hazing as "to subject another student to physical injury as part of an initiation, or as a prerequisite to membership, in any organized school group . . . ."

So where I live, while my fraternity or the NPC might consider something that causes mental distress to be hazing, the state would not -- meaning that in those instances, hazing is NOT illegal here. That doesn't take into account the differing definitions that can be found in the other 49 states and among specific GLOs and colleges/universities.

"Hazing," for understandable reasons, is a loaded word these days. The reality is that different people use "hazing" to mean different things, some of which may be illegal (or against GLO or university policies) and some of which may not. If we don't recognize that people are using different definitions of hazing, discussions like this one are doomed to devolve into unproductive arguments.

/lawyering

[macallan25]

I'm well aware of what my university considers hazing and what they will do in respect to the actions performed by chapters called in to question.

Honestly, you can stop with the "hazing is illegal I don't care what you say blah blah blah" crap. I'm aware of that. Thanks. I'm also aware that your train of thought simply doesn't work in all situations. There isn't a sound definition of hazing....at all. Do you know some places consider withholding the date of initiation or big brother night from pledges hazing? Are you honestly going to sit here and tell me that keeping a secret is illegal? I hope you wouldn't. I don't need to search threads to see that numerous chapters get kicked off for hazing. I'd be interested to find a thread where a chapter got kicked off for making pledges wear tucked in Polos with khaki pants or made their pledge go to a study hall or made them clean the house or, again, something similar. Basically, I'd like to find a chapter that got kicked off campus for running a responsible pledgeship in which actives still made pledges actually earn their membership. Not all hazing involves mental distress and dangerous situations.

Also, I know plenty about what went on "in that period" There is not a single person in my family or extended family that wasn't Greek. I think I get the picture.

.....and as far as what is tolerated.....there is plenty that is tolerated and that is a fact. If you think otherwise, then I don't really know what to tell you. I'm certainly not going to argue about it.

It's a stupid discussion. It really is. The argument will go around and around in circles forever.

Originally Posted by DeltAlum

I'm not telling you that. Your university administration and your lawmakers are. I'm not taking a position on whether they're right or wrong.

Your name calling doesn't fix anything. No matter what you say or believe, hazing is ILLEGAL, weather the definitions are right, wrong or indifferent.

I've been around this stuff for years as an undergraduate, an advisor and a division officer. Frankly, some people act like spoiled little wet behind the ears rich kids who, as near as I can tell, have no clue about how much trouble this stuff can cause. How's that for name calling? But this isn't a matter of who can yell the loudest and call people names. It's a matter of survival for not only our chapters, but the Fraternity and Sorority system as we know it.

I went through rush and pledging before this stuff was against the law, and frankly I doubt that you have any idea of what went on in that period. If you think that our brotherhood stronger, you're wrong. That's rhetoric instead of reality.

You can yell "naive" all you want, but some of us have a whole lot of experience that you (global you) don't and we can use that experience to come to logical conclusions that you don't have the background to even consider.

Times have changed, and the stuff that your daddys and I went through have to be memories -- or our chapters will be. I hope that you don't discover that the hard way, given present circumstances.

University administrations and state legislatures have decided that they have to stop hazing because little things lead to bigger ones and sooner or later someone gets badly hurt or killed. Maybe some have over reacted, but that's beside the point. They have the elected or appointed right to do that.

On both sides of the argument, it's the famous, "give them an inch and they'll take a mile" syndrome. Unfortunately, the cliche' is too true all too often.

Insurance companies have decided that because of the rules and laws that have been put in place, they won't insure chapters that don't obey those laws. Suits have been filed against everyone from chapter members, officers, advisors, nationals, house corporation members, university administrators and even parents. Even if you're insured, if you break the law or the rules, the insurance company isn't going to pay damages -- they're going to cancel the policy and run the other way. They have the power to do that, too.

Want to write a few million dollar checks out of the chapter treasury?

When are you all going to figure out that it doesn't matter whether study tables, quizes, scavenger hunts, house cleanups, sleep deprivation, lineups, hell week and the like may not be dangerous? Somebody in authority at the university, the legislature or the GLO have decided that they won't be tolerated. Did I mention that they have the power to do that until a court decides they're wrong?

That doesn't even touch on drugs and underage drinking.

The bottom line is this -- take a look at the threads in this forum. Check out how many chapters have been suspended. See how many university administrations are cracking down. Look at how many nationals have been backed into a corner and forced to crack down on chapters for things they might have overlooked in the past. Consider how insurance rates have skyrocked. More than that, look at how many lawsuits have been filed. Even worse, consider how many people have been hurt or even killed when little things went just one step too far.

Then, when your chapter is gone, consider who is the moron. Who is niave. It's not the ones who enforce or obey the rules, it's the ones who break them.

Don't be an idiot.

[bluemay414]

Originally Posted by DeltAlum

I'm not telling you that. Your university administration and your lawmakers are. I'm not taking a position on whether they're right or wrong.

Your name calling doesn't fix anything. No matter what you say or believe, hazing is ILLEGAL, whether the definitions are right, wrong or indifferent.

I've been around this stuff for years as an undergraduate, an advisor and a division officer. Frankly, some people act like spoiled little wet behind the ears rich kids who, as near as I can tell, have no clue about how much trouble this stuff can cause. How's that for name calling? But this isn't a matter of who can yell the loudest and call people names. It's a matter of survival for not only our chapters, but the Fraternity and Sorority system as we know it.




I went through rush and pledging before this stuff was against the law, and frankly I doubt that you have any idea of what went on in that period. If you think that our brotherhood stronger, you're wrong. That's rhetoric instead of reality.

You can yell "naive" all you want, but some of us have a whole lot of experience that you (global you) don't and we can use that experience to come to logical conclusions that you don't have the background to even consider.

Times have changed, and the stuff that your daddys and I went through have to be memories -- or our chapters will be. I hope that you don't discover that the hard way, given present circumstances.

University administrations and state legislatures have decided that they have to stop hazing because little things lead to bigger ones and sooner or later someone gets badly hurt or killed. Maybe some have over reacted, but that's beside the point. They have the elected or appointed right to do that.

On both sides of the argument, it's the famous, "give them an inch and they'll take a mile" syndrome. Unfortunately, the cliche' is too true all too often.

Insurance companies have decided that because of the rules and laws that have been put in place, they won't insure chapters that don't obey those laws. Suits have been filed against everyone from chapter members, officers, advisors, nationals, house corporation members, university administrators and even parents. Even if you're insured, if you break the law or the rules, the insurance company isn't going to pay damages -- they're going to cancel the policy and run the other way. They have the power to do that, too.

Want to write a few million dollar checks out of the chapter treasury?

When are you all going to figure out that it doesn't matter whether study tables, quizes, scavenger hunts, house cleanups, sleep deprivation, lineups, hell week and the like may not be dangerous? Somebody in authority at the university, the legislature or the GLO have decided that they won't be tolerated. Did I mention that they have the power to do that until a court decides they're wrong?

That doesn't even touch on drugs and underage drinking.

The bottom line is this -- take a look at the threads in this forum. Check out how many chapters have been suspended. See how many university administrations are cracking down. Look at how many nationals have been backed into a corner and forced to crack down on chapters for things they might have overlooked in the past. Consider how insurance rates have skyrocked. More than that, look at how many lawsuits have been filed. Even worse, consider how many people have been hurt or even killed when little things went just one step too far.

Then, when your chapter is gone, consider who is the moron. Who is niave. It's not the ones who enforce or obey the rules, it's the ones who break them.

Don't be an idiot.

..........