Afghanistan

[RACooper]

Originally Posted by Tom Earp

Brother Cooper, what many forget is that there are many Countrys and many Men and Women who are in foreign Countrys fighting for Freedom.

I /We have Brothers and friends over there. They are there for one reason only, to try and protect Us from having this going on In our own Countrys.

Ask the French and Germans who were trying to work with them. So, what do these morons care? They kill period!!!

It is time some think of them and what they are doing to really try to make it better for the people who are getting killed as civilians who are just there trying to live.

I'm sorry Tom but I can't accept your statement that we should remember that soldiers from many nations are in Afghanistan, when it's followed by your statement slamming the French and Germans.

The French and Germans have been in Afghanistan since the beginning, have both held command of operations, and both have had their people die. So I cannot allow you to slam these countries and their soldiers for their commitment to Afghanistan's future ~ that's the type of moronic statement I'd expect from a sh*t-stain like Bill O'Reilly, not from a Brother.

[shinerbock]

I think they have a problem with you using an extremely isolated example to discredit the entire U.S. military.

[KSig RC]

Originally Posted by ariesrising

Fact is, these incidents make the news more than the good going on over there does....and thus colours people's views of the military.

Fact is, this is only true for people who have problems with reading, learning or fully understanding the size of the military - as well as how things should "reflect" on others in dissimilar situations.

Originally Posted by ariesrising

I happen to believe the military is a place where people who have issues with dominance and power and violence to start with will thrive, and continue to put a black mark on the institution as a whole. I happen to believe the war in Iraq has very very little to do with Osama Bin Laden as well.

Oh, cute - so really all of this is clouded by your own biases against the military, as well as a distaste for US foreign policy/governmental actions?

I happen to believe that is f-ed up.

[Kevin]

Originally Posted by ariesrising

Fact is, these incidents make the news more than the good going on over there does....and thus colours people's views of the military.

So you admit that your opinion is basically unjustified in that you're well aware of the fact that you're not getting the whole picture. Even so, you're willing to condemn entire nations. That's terrific.

I happen to believe the military is a place where people who have issues with dominance and power and violence to start with will thrive, and continue to put a black mark on the institution as a whole. I happen to believe the war in Iraq has very very little to do with Osama Bin Laden as well.

Military -- violence? Say it ain't so. If you give automatic weapons to a bunch of 18-21 year olds, you will have problems. It's no big secret. Also, I'd like to remind you to maybe review the thread. We were discussing some cowardly Canadian politician's thought that because of 4 casualties, Canada ought to withdraw from Afghanistan and bargain with the Taliban for a peaceful regime.

Of course, the Taliban's version of "peace" involves Al Qaeda training camps, stoning women, generally things which would make even the most criminally violent American or Canadian soldier blush. But that's neither here nor there, is it?

[RACooper]

Originally Posted by ktsnake

We were discussing some cowardly Canadian politician's thought that because of 4 casualties, Canada ought to withdraw from Afghanistan and bargain with the Taliban for a peaceful regime.

Of course, the Taliban's version of "peace" involves Al Qaeda training camps, stoning women, generally things which would make even the most criminally violent American or Canadian soldier blush. But that's neither here nor there, is it?

Sigh… it’s a little more complicated than the “hey he wants a withdrawal so he must be a coward” belief makes it out to believe (despite what Harper and the “Conservatives” are promoting up here).

Jack Layton wants a withdrawal of Canadian troops, unless two things happen:
1) That the Canadian Forces switch back to a role that is primarily security and reconstruction – something that they where having a lot of success with.
2) That the Parliament engages in a public debate that’ll will give all parties (and the general) a chance to understand and concretely define the role and goal of the Canadian Forces in Afghanistan.

Now the reasons for the above are the rising Canadian casualties as they have shifted into a primarily combat operations role. Now the casualties while disturbing to the NDP, it isn’t the deaths that is the main political concern: rather it is the assumption of combat operations. The Canadian Forces switched to combat operations at the behest the Pentagon/White House in order to relieve the pressure on US forces in Afghanistan, so that troops could be in turn shifted to Iraq.

The NDP objects to this as the Prime Minister ordered this done without consultation from Parliament, and because it is indirectly lending support for the US war in Iraq. The actual redeployment of troops was “technically” a violation of Parliamentary protocol; in that at the very least the PM should have announced it in session, and not done it while Parliament was on holiday. The second part, the indirect support for the US effort in Iraq, is a more troublesome political problem – in that the Conservatives effectively and unilaterally reversed the ruling of Parliament and the Senate (as well as the public) to not lend military or political support for the US actions in Iraq, which were declared a violation of international law. If they had debated the issue in the House there is a very good chance that the redeployment would not have gone through, and in fact would have caused a serious challenge to the Conservative’s minority government.

Now as for Layton's wish to have talks with the Taliban, again it is not so simple as "hey lets make peace and have them take over again"... Layton simply believes that the more moderate members of the Taliban should be included in the reconstruction effort, at least verbally if not physically.

Now all of this would be even more politically volitile if the Liberals actually had a leader and a firm political policy ~ as it is at the very least Layton's calls for debate or withdrawal are being recieved and echoed by a larger audience... including the Conservatives political partners in Parliament the Bloc Quebecois.

[KSigkid]

Originally Posted by ariesrising

Fact is, these incidents make the news more than the good going on over there does....and thus colours people's views of the military.

I happen to believe the military is a place where people who have issues with dominance and power and violence to start with will thrive, and continue to put a black mark on the institution as a whole. I happen to believe the war in Iraq has very very little to do with Osama Bin Laden as well.

I don't have much to say about this line of reasoning, as Kevin and RC have offered intelligent feedback. I will say, though, that I hope you understand just how offensive and short-sighted your statements are to those of us who have friends, relatives and parents who have served honorably in the military in this war and others.

You are taking isolated incidents and using them to characterize an entire military. Whether or not other people are doing the same, that doesn't make it right. Be for the war, be against the war, but don't misrepresent the troops who are fighting it.

[Rudey]

Originally Posted by ariesrising

I would think that US soldiers raping a woman after killing her family would be thought of as "overly gung-ho". But that's just me.

Where did that happen again? Iraq? This thread is about Aghanistan? So you make no sense? Maybe? That's probably not just me.

-Rudey

[RU OX Alum]

Sorry about your loss man.

[KSigkid]

Originally Posted by ariesrising

I would think that US soldiers raping a woman after killing her family would be thought of as "overly gung-ho". But that's just me.

Thanks, but even the worst stories that are coming out do not paint the entire US military force as "overly gung-ho."

Hopefully it's not just me that sees this as another huge generalization. This sounds a whole lot like the insults thrown at Vietnam vets when they returned home.

Rob, I'm sorry about your friends, my condolences on your losses.

[macallan25]

Originally Posted by ariesrising

I would think that US soldiers raping a woman after killing her family would be thought of as "overly gung-ho". But that's just me.

I would think one isolated incident involving one or maybe a couple people wouldn't characterize the entire US Military.

...but thats just me.

[Kevin]

Originally Posted by ariesrising

I would think that US soldiers raping a woman after killing her family would be thought of as "overly gung-ho". But that's just me.

With all due respect, that's just dumb. Are you suggesting this conduct is common or tolerated in the U.S. military?

What are you suggesting? 4 Canadians died in Afghanistan, I'm thankful for their sacrifice, but do you want to compare? Negotiating with a terrorist regime that brought us the World Trade Center bombing for "peace" has got to be the most idiotic thing I've ever heard of.

Should I therefore draw the conclusion that all Canadians are cowards just beacuse some of your political leadership seem to be?

[DeltAlum]

Rob,

Thanks for the PM.

As for the comment by ariesrising about rape, the actions of one, or even a small group of people, does not paint an entire military organization with the same brush.

That comment is also uncalled for.