The dictation of General

[ZZ-kai-]

I think they're saying 'you can't NOT pledge a person due to race, ethnicity, creed, religion...etc.', not saying 'you have to take a jewish man, an african american, a mexican and a homosexual'. This is just a formality, nothing more, and won't change the way any of our chapters operate.

Originally posted by furmanbeta
....Further, there's an amendment to the Code which is going to be proposed in Toronto, basically saying something along the lines of "Beta won't discriminate based on race, ethnicity, creed, religion, etc." Let's be honest, we should be exclusive. Take the best people as you define them. Every chapter has their own arbitrary factors for determining who gets a bid, some even being as paltry as looks or popularity. Do I have a problem with how any chapter picks their pledges? No, I'm not in their shoes, I don't know who or what is best for them. Discrimination is bad, but we're letting people into a very exclusive club here, you can't just let anyone in.

[a.e.B.O.T.]

I just hope to God that race, ethnicity, creed, or religion does not factor into your bid process

[Coramoor]

Is hazing a good thing? Not really. Should the general fraternity endorse hazing? No. Should the general fraternity punish hazing? Sure. They have to cover their own backsides. But we're in a fraternity, where the undergrads define the chapter, not the national organization. It makes me sick that people are trying to homogonize Beta. Further, there's an amendment to the Code which is going to be proposed in Toronto, basically saying something along the lines of "Beta won't discriminate based on race, ethnicity, creed, religion, etc." Let's be honest, we should be exclusive. Take the best people as you define them. Every chapter has their own arbitrary factors for determining who gets a bid, some even being as paltry as looks or popularity. Do I have a problem with how any chapter picks their pledges? No, I'm not in their shoes, I don't know who or what is best for them. Discrimination is bad, but we're letting people into a very exclusive club here, you can't just let anyone in.

I totally agree.

I don't see Beta as a charity organization that should take every body that walks in the door. There are people if taken will harm the reputation and standing of the chapter-and that in turn will lead to far reaching consequences.

I think that in some instances Beta is falling into a european stance on individuals. No one should be better than the worst person...

[Betarulz!]

Fellas, there is a difference between excluding people based on what they DO vs. what they ARE.

Does that make sense?

No one is saying you take the guy who doesn't meet the quality requirements. They are saying, that if a man is worthy of joining your chapter, then extend him a bid. If he's worthy, but happens to be black, and you don't extend him a bid, well that's wrong.

I can't imagine that would change the way in which any chapter operates. (Except for Denison, or at least I think it was Denison, that somehow became affiliated with a white power group...)

Further, intake of pledges can and never will be taken over by the GF. It just can't happen. There's no way to legislate that besides setting minimums, and those are up to the General Convention.

Finally - if you want to fix it, then when you graduate and become an alum, get active at the national level. Be the voice of dissent and pull people back when they encroach on the Convention.

[ZZ-kai-]

Well said.

[a.e.B.O.T.]

Originally posted by Betarulz!
(Except for Denison, or at least I think it was Denison, that somehow became affiliated with a white power group...)

LMAO... IM from DENISON... lol, yes, the Alpha Eta Colony was involved in a white power group called the wingless angels... and the wingless angels are still around, but I assure you that none of the current Betas are in the Wingless Angels, and that we run a nonracist recruitment.





and yes, that was very well said

[furmanbeta]

Look, this is not an issue at my chapter. However, as I've said before, who am I to judge what person might fit into another chapter's organization? People with differences in religion, race or sexual orientation don't fit into certain chapters? Do I think less of Auburn (merely a fictitious example) for not extending a bid to a black person because it's a house full of rich, white kids? No. While this individual might fit into the Columbia chapter, he might not fit in at Auburn. Different strokes for different folks y'all. We all discriminate in the process for one reason or another. I personally am not of the belief that discriminating on the above factors is any better or worse than discrimination based on looks or popularity. Discrimination is discrimination any way you slice it. The only way to avoid it in this case is to try to extend bids to the entire rush list or freshman class. Otherwise, you're technically discriminating against some individual. That's not good. I'm advocating picking who's best for you, period. Don't think less of chapters who are rich kids not poor kids, white kids not black kids, christians kids not jewish kids. They pick who works with their chapter dynamic and it should be left at that. Period.

[ECUJacob]

So recently our chapter, ZH at San Jose State has been told to drop our traditions of big bro night b/c of alcohol and even elements of initiation due to "hazing,"

If I remember correctly, you are supposed to follow the initiation ritual(s) as they are outlined in the small blue book that we all have. Therefore, you should not be adding any aspects to the ritual, whether you think they are hazing or not. Right?

I do not feel like we are problematic, we don't haze but we do like to see emotion and have the pledges feel and have devotion towards Beta.

We, as chapters, have to abide by the rules. If someone says you're hazing, then it's probably best to follow their advice and alter your "traditions" so that they can't be misconstrued as hazing or detrimental.

[Betarulz!]

Originally posted by furmanbeta
Look, this is not an issue at my chapter. However, as I've said before, who am I to judge what person might fit into another chapter's organization? People with differences in religion, race or sexual orientation don't fit into certain chapters? Do I think less of Auburn (merely a fictitious example) for not extending a bid to a black person because it's a house full of rich, white kids? No. While this individual might fit into the Columbia chapter, he might not fit in at Auburn. Different strokes for different folks y'all. We all discriminate in the process for one reason or another. I personally am not of the belief that discriminating on the above factors is any better or worse than discrimination based on looks or popularity. Discrimination is discrimination any way you slice it. The only way to avoid it in this case is to try to extend bids to the entire rush list or freshman class. Otherwise, you're technically discriminating against some individual. That's not good. I'm advocating picking who's best for you, period. Don't think less of chapters who are rich kids not poor kids, white kids not black kids, christians kids not jewish kids. They pick who works with their chapter dynamic and it should be left at that. Period.

I don't think that discrimination is discrimination. And further, I think that "fitting in" with a chpater is part of that "what people do" portion I was trying to get at.

I should have fleshed that out a little farther. The proposed admendment is saying, we're not going to deny a bid simply because that person is black, or jewish or gay. If the chapter says, "well we'd give him a bid, BUT he's X" (and X is something that people are - we call them ascribed characteristics in sociology) than that is wrong. This would mean that he "fit" in, but just so happen to have one thing that didn't fly with the chapter.

Further, because the admendment is going to specifically state which areas are not going to be discriminated against (race, color, creed, sexual orientation) then we're protected from having to offer everyone, not that we would have to do anything of the sort anyways. Again, this isn't saying that simply because someone is interested we can't say no, just that we can't say no if the only reason we say no happens to be one of those things.

Most discrimination cases as far as I know, require proof that the trait in question is the only reason why the person was dismissed. If there is ANY legitimate reason, then that is not discrimination.

[a.e.B.O.T.]

im confused furman... are you saying a black man can't fit in with a group of white men, just because he is the only black man?

[Coramoor]

It's a slippery slope situation.

Pretty soon people will be bitching because we don't let females, people with poor GPA's, people that can't afford dues, etc in because the amendment opened up the door for those arguments.

Beta should be an exclusive organization, not one that has to regulate itself to accept everyone. The G.F. is diluting its quality of men and chapters.

[ZZ-kai-]

Race, religion, creed, ethnicity is nothing in comparison to 'females, people with poor GPA's, people that can't afford dues'. If you're going to make comments, make sure you compare apples to apples, or just tell us outright that you feel people of other race/religion...etc. don't belong. Personal opinions are fine, but don't blame the entire org. for doing the right thing, when you disagree with it.

[furmanbeta]

My entire point is, take the best. Whomever they might be, take them. It doesn't matter to me how a chapter defines the best. My chapter doesn't actively discriminate (at least not that I know of), but I don't fault other chapter which would seemingly do so to the outside world. But, to reply to an earlier question, yes obviously a black man can fit into a group of white men. However, let's be honest here and realize that there are sociologocial differences between people. Are all blacks the same? No. Are all whites the same? No. But I've come across chapters which don't have black members and I don't fault them for it. Be the best, however you define it, that's what Beta has always been about.

[a.e.B.O.T.]

Originally posted by furmanbeta
My entire point is, take the best. Whomever they might be, take them. It doesn't matter to me how a chapter defines the best. My chapter doesn't actively discriminate (at least not that I know of), but I don't fault other chapter which would seemingly do so to the outside world. But, to reply to an earlier question, yes obviously a black man can fit into a group of white men. However, let's be honest here and realize that there are sociologocial differences between people. Are all blacks the same? No. Are all whites the same? No. But I've come across chapters which don't have black members and I don't fault them for it. Be the best, however you define it, that's what Beta has always been about.

you finally said something I totally agree with.

[sdbeta1]

Viktor, is there an update on the situation at San Jose State?