Lying CEOs......

[JennRN]

Originally posted by honeychile
I agree with you, except for one point. It's next to impossible for a coal miner to get or afford insurance. Throw in the fact that the company had 208 safety violations last year, 46 of which were in December, and the few who do have insurance may not be eligible because of that. Sago was just bought out by another company; we can only hope that the new company will put the necessary safety improvements. Until it's known what really happened, it's all guesswork.

These aren't all "poor, uneducated rednecks" who didn't even try to get out of the mines (yes, I know that no one has said that, but it has been implied). Some of these men had college degrees (electric engineers, safety engineers, etc) which would have qualified them for megabucks elsewhere.

You know, these mines can get violations for not having enough toilet paper in the restroom( no joke). So before we start pointing to that as the cause, we need to look at all the facts.

The company that had owned the mine previously had gone bankrupt a year ago ( I think) and had no $$ to work on the violations. The current owners recently aquired the mine and have been working for about 2 months, trying to get it up to code. But no matter many or how few violations a mine, has, there is no way to make it completely safe. There just isn't. It's just a dangerous job. My husband is a director of coal sales and trading here in NC, and he's been to his company's mines in WV, and he told me, you just can't accident-proof the mines. And you can get violations for small, dinky crap like literally not having enough toilet paper in the bathroom. So, we have no idea what kind of shape this mine was in.

That being said, I think miners don't get paid enough for what they do.

[DeltAlum]

Originally posted by JennRN
You know, these mines can get violations for not having enough toilet paper in the restroom( no joke). So before we start pointing to that as the cause, we need to look at all the facts.

That being said, I think miners don't get paid enough for what they do.

Two excellent points.

I just read a piece about the new owner of the mine -- they took over in November -- and they get very high marks from everyone in terms of trying to bring the safety standards up. Even the United Mineworkers, who don't represent workers at the mine, give the company high marks.

Additionally, according to the story I read, over half of the violations carry fines of $46.

Yes, that's $46.

They can't be real serious.

To be fair, there were a number of more serious violations, but according to the article, there was a Federal mine inspector onsite every day that this mine was open.

The point is that when something like this happens, possibly because of the often deserved legend of the big bad nasty mine owner, we tend to rush to judgement.

Like the folks who started the "miscommunication," the media, and all others involved in this situation, perhaps we should wait until there is more information and evaluate the company, et al when the heat of the moment has passed.

[dzrose93]

Originally posted by valkyrie
I don't know -- I don't want to make light of the tragedy that occurred, but isn't it likely that the miners knew the risks and worked in the mine anyway? Of course it's not okay to run a shoddy mine operation that is riddled with violations, but I can't agree with the assertion that the families are automatically entitled to a "ton of money for their pain and suffering." If the company does have to pay out $$$ in damages and/or increased insurance rates/etc. as the result of what happened and is able to stay in business (I'm not sure how likely that is), there will be less money to actually try to make the working conditions safer. Is that a good result?

I see what you're saying, valkyrie. The way I'm looking at it is that these poor guys (and many others like them) were working in the mines because it's all that was available to them in that economically-oppressed area of WV. Even with all the safety violations, they probably didn't feel as if they had a choice about going to work every day. They had families to provide for, and knew that their wives and kids were counting on them to put bread on the table each week. And with the Christmas season just finishing up, I'd be willing to bet that a lot of those guys were thinking that they needed the money now more than ever.

I also would be willing to bet that the people running that mine knew that they had their employees between a rock and a hard place, and knew that they would have to work regardless of how many violations came to light. That's why I hope that the miners' families will sue the company. Money talks when nothing else does. I realize that the company doesn't have a bottomless pit of cash, but coal is big business. My guess is that they'd be able to settle the lawsuits and still have enough to fix the mine. That, or another company would come in and buy it from them and it would get fixed that way.

Anyway, that's how I see it. I could be way off base, but that's how I feel. I just want those folks to have easier days ahead of them. They deserve that much at the very least.

[dzrose93]

Originally posted by DeltAlum
Two excellent points.

I just read a piece about the new owner of the mine -- they took over in November -- and they get very high marks from everyone in terms of trying to bring the safety standards up. Even the United Mineworkers, who don't represent workers at the mine, give the company high marks.

Additionally, according to the story I read, over half of the violations carry fines of $46.

Yes, that's $46.

They can't be real serious.

To be fair, there were a number of more serious violations, but according to the article, there was a Federal mine inspector onsite every day that this mine was open.

The point is that when something like this happens, possibly because of the often deserved legend of the big bad nasty mine owner, we tend to rush to judgement.

Like the folks who started the "miscommunication," the media, and all others involved in this situation, perhaps we should wait until there is more information and evaluate the company, et al when the heat of the moment has passed.

I just read what DeltAlum posted, and have to say that he makes sense (as usual). My prior posts were based on the news that I'd read regarding the number of safety violations in the Sago mine. However, I didn't know that they were being fined $46 for some of them. That does seem to suggest that they weren't major violations. It tends to make me rethink my poor opinion of the company a bit. (I still want those families taken care of, though.)

Thanks for the info, DeltAlum.

[AOIIBrandi]

I feel horribly for these families. The "miscommunication" thing was awful, but it also did not come to them via a reliable source of communication. Any real information should have come from the CEO of the company or whoever else had been the one giving the updates. I understand how it happened though, they were distraught and wanting to hang on to any thread of good news. It is sick that they would let them believe their loved ones were alive for 3 hours though. My guess is they really wanted to make sure of everything before anything was official.

On a side note - my Grandfather was a coal miner in KY. He had an 8th grade education, and had better benefits (health, pension...) than a lot of college educated people I know. I am normally against unions, but in this instance I think the miners unions do a good job in representing the workers.

[DeltAlum]

Originally posted by AOIIBrandi
The "miscommunication" thing was awful, but it also did not come to them via a reliable source of communication.

Exactly. Did you ever play the game where fifteen or so people sit in a circle and the first one whispers a comment to someone, who whispers it to the next person, etc.? By the time it gets back to the person who started it, the comment isn't generally even close to how it originated.

I'm not saying this is what happened, but consider this senario:

Rescuer: "We've found them. We're checking for vital signs!

Base: "They've found them and are checking vital signs."

Company person: "They've found them and are checking their vital signs. They must be alive!"

Local cop who wants to be a hero: "I heard a company person say 'They must be alive.'"

Media Person: "We're getting reports from a local law enforcement officer that the miners have been found and may be alive."

Listener, viewer or relative: "They're Alive!"


So, who is to blame? In the end, probably everyone but the rescuer who is risking his butt down in the mine -- but nobody has miscommunicated on purpose. They all heard it from what they feel is a legitimate source.

It's tragic, but is there any single person to blame?

[JennRN]

Originally posted by dzrose93


I also would be willing to bet that the people running that mine knew that they had their employees between a rock and a hard place, and knew that they would have to work regardless of how many violations came to light. That's why I hope that the miners' families will sue the company. Money talks when nothing else does. I realize that the company doesn't have a bottomless pit of cash, but coal is big business.

Ok, suing the company is not the answer. Don't you think that the miners knew the risks they were taking by accepting that job? Should a Marine's mom, whose son gets killed in Iraq, be able to sue the Marines? Or, should the wife of a roughneck who works on an oil rig in the gulf, be able to sue the oil company if there's an explosion on the rig? These people know there are risks in their job-but they do it anyway. Some jobs cannot be made 100% safe.

[valkyrie]

Originally posted by dzrose93
I see what you're saying, valkyrie. The way I'm looking at it is that these poor guys (and many others like them) were working in the mines because it's all that was available to them in that economically-oppressed area of WV. Even with all the safety violations, they probably didn't feel as if they had a choice about going to work every day. They had families to provide for, and knew that their wives and kids were counting on them to put bread on the table each week. And with the Christmas season just finishing up, I'd be willing to bet that a lot of those guys were thinking that they needed the money now more than ever.

I also would be willing to bet that the people running that mine knew that they had their employees between a rock and a hard place, and knew that they would have to work regardless of how many violations came to light. That's why I hope that the miners' families will sue the company. Money talks when nothing else does. I realize that the company doesn't have a bottomless pit of cash, but coal is big business. My guess is that they'd be able to settle the lawsuits and still have enough to fix the mine. That, or another company would come in and buy it from them and it would get fixed that way.

Anyway, that's how I see it. I could be way off base, but that's how I feel. I just want those folks to have easier days ahead of them. They deserve that much at the very least.

I absolutely understand what you're saying. I really think this is an issue that needs some kind of broader resolution than can come from lawsuits in the case, if that makes sense. It sucks that people, for whatever reason, work in unsafe or otherwise crappy conditions. It would be great if, as a society, we could work on fixing that.

[honeychile]

Originally posted by valkyrie
It sucks that people, for whatever reason, work in unsafe or otherwise crappy conditions. It would be great if, as a society, we could work on fixing that.

Just throwing this out - what would it take? Should the Federal Government step in and insist on fixing this? Or should there be such a public outcry that the owners of companies that have poor conditions are embarrassed into changing things?

I don't know much about the nuclear industry, just what I saw in Silkwood and Kerr-McGee. Same thing with Erin Brokovich. Maybe we need a recognizable crusader such as Karen or Erin?

[dzrose93]

Originally posted by valkyrie
I absolutely understand what you're saying. I really think this is an issue that needs some kind of broader resolution than can come from lawsuits in the case, if that makes sense. It sucks that people, for whatever reason, work in unsafe or otherwise crappy conditions. It would be great if, as a society, we could work on fixing that.

You make a lot of sense to me. I do hope that this whole ordeal will shine more light on the dangers of mining and prompt other mining companies to check (and doublecheck) their safety measures.

[dzrose93]

Originally posted by JennRN
Ok, suing the company is not the answer. Don't you think that the miners knew the risks they were taking by accepting that job? Should a Marine's mom, whose son gets killed in Iraq, be able to sue the Marines? Or, should the wife of a roughneck who works on an oil rig in the gulf, be able to sue the oil company if there's an explosion on the rig? These people know there are risks in their job-but they do it anyway. Some jobs cannot be made 100% safe.

I agree with you that some jobs can't be made 100% safe, JennRN. But I do think there's a big difference between someone signing up for the Marines and someone working in a mine or on an oil rig. As a soldier, your job is to protect your country at all cost, and every enlisted soldier knows that there is a chance that he/she may be shot at one day... that's what war is about. On the other hand, a miner or an oil rig worker certainly realizes that his job is dangerous, but I would think that most of them are counting on their employers to follow governmental regulations designed to keep them safe on the job.

The original reports that came out on this mining company stated that the company had been cited many, many times last month for safety violations. That's what I had the problem with -- based on the news reports it appeared that the company knew there were some big safety issues with the Sago mine and kept the miners working in there anyway. To me, that smacked of corporate irresponsibility and I thought that some lawsuits from the grieving family members were in order.

However, DeltAlum posted (after I had voiced my opinions about the situation) that the safety violations did not seem to be major ones, and that folks may be jumping to conclusions by immediately blaming the company. Based on that information, I rethought my original position and am trying to hold off on any further judgments until all the facts are known.

By the way, I just saw an article online stating that the mining company is setting up a $2 million fund for the miners' families and is asking for donations from other sources as well. That looks like they're taking a step in the right direction, and I'm happy to see that they're trying to help care for the families. I don't know if threats of lawsuits or an outpouring of compassion got the ball rolling, but I'm glad to see that something's in the works.

[JennRN]

Actually, I was the one who posted about the violations.

Here's the thing though...as a nurse, I work with many patients who are HIV/Hep B/ Hep C positive-and I take all the necessary precations, and I assume that my employers will take the necessary precautions to protect me as well....however, many of the patients spit at us( I had one guy spit HIV positive blood at me), swing at us, cough on us, etc-and I have no rights againts them-I can't sue them , even though they put my health-and life at risk-so, what I guess I'm trying to say is , even the employer can't always make things right.
But, I know this, and I still go to work every shift.


Also, I think a fund for the families is a great idea. Last night -when we thought there was still a chance-Mr.RN and I thought that we should donate some $$.

So very, very sad. My heart breaks at the thought of wives waiting to learn if their husbands are alive or not-I couldn't handle it, thats for sure.

[dzrose93]

Originally posted by JennRN
Actually, I was the one who posted about the violations.

Sorry about that! You're absolutely right -- my bad!

Re: your job as a nurse. Many of my chapter sisters are nurses and, after hearing some of their stories, I wouldn't wish that job on anyone. Y'all are a whole lot braver than I am! Thanks for the tough work that you do. I have a great deal of respect for folks in the medical field.

[AGDee]

After working in hospitals for 13 years, especially mental health units, I learned a few things about violations. JCAHO, the main accreditor for hospitals and our state mental health department did routine visits to check for violations of various codes. The one thing you know is, they will always find something. Whether someone forgot to dot their "i" or cross their "t", their job is to find things that need to be improved. There are always things that can be improved. Some things are more serious than others and you don't want them to find serious things, but you do have to accept that will find something, even at the best hospitals in the country.

I know a lot more about steel mills than I do coal mines because my ex-husband works for a steel mill as an accountant. That is another very dangerous job that really can't be made 100% safe. It's tragic when something awful occurs, but it is a high risk job. One day, when we were still married, I got a phone call from him saying "I just wanted to let you know that I'm fine, but there was an explosion here today and there are probably a lot of people who are dead. I wanted you to know before you heard it on the news." Before I could ask any questions, the phone line went dead because the power went out. 12 men lost their lives that day (or shortly after, from related injuries) and it was heart breaking for all who worked there. I still worry that he has to hang out in the hot strip mill (why would a financial analyst have to be in that plant??). The reality is, it's dangerous. Many jobs are.. police, fire fighters, teachers (in some school districts), etc. Thankfully, there are people willing to take the risks, because we do need people to do these jobs. All we can do is show our respect and appreciation for them. Many of us wouldn't have electricity to power these PCs of ours if not for the coal miners.

[honeychile]

COMPLETELY off topic, but something that just amazed me: did you know that you can catch Hep-C from dried blood that's up to seven days old?!?!?!?!

I'm a geriatric counselor, and I really don't like to use gloves (the human touch & all) with my clients, but after hearing this, I'm ready to wear a haz-mat suit for my next nursing home visit!!

On Topic

They showed news clips tonight from the Sago Baptist Church, and they were holding a memorial service. I expected all sorts of sad, dirge-type songs, but they were really positive. I would hate to have someone lose their faith due to something out of their control.

I also didn't realize how close to Philippi this was. The junior- and senior-high kids at my church work year round to raise money to help the truly poor of this area. They then take 2-week turns there, cleaning for older people, mending fences and stuff like that. It's really great to see such young people giving of themselves like that!