Ann Coulter tells the truth on "registered Democratic voters."

[moe.ron]

We're supposed to get paid? Damn B, I think John forgot something.

[The1calledTKE]

Originally posted by moe.ron
We're supposed to get paid? Damn B, I think John forgot something.

I guess he did forget. Speaking of common sense I guess that counts out hoosier for moderator.

[RACooper]

Originally posted by DeltAlum
He may well have been a loser...but unless he was a member of the administration(s) who tried to micro-manage the war and not allow the professional military win it -- he was almost certainly not "the reason we lost that war."

Vietnam veterans have lived with enough without having to listen to outlandish generalities and personal attacks like that.

Co-sign

This guy was on the sharp-end of things while Coulter was playing with her dollies

But then hey was does Coulter know about Vietnam anyways? After all she was under the impression that Canada fought there too...

[Phasad1913]

Originally posted by RACooper
Co-sign

This guy was on the sharp-end of things while Coulter was playing with her dollies

But then hey was does Coulter know about Vietnam anyways? After all she was under the impression that Canada fought there too...

lol

[GeekyPenguin]

I think we should get a new News and Politics moderator too. I suggest Scalia. He likes to BALLEET people and since he isn't the Chief Justice nominee he has a lot of free time on his hands to balleet all the idiots who don't know anything about the Constitution at all.

[Rudey]

Originally posted by RACooper
But then hey was does Coulter know about Vietnam anyways? After all she was under the impression that Canada fought there too...

Well, yes and no. The number of Canadians who fought with the US army is estimated to surpass the number of Americans who dodged the draft to move to Canada. 6 Canadians are still MIA/POW from the war I think.

Canada's government did not send troops to fight in the war and when these troops returned they faced a lot of nastiness - especially from the dick Americans living in Canada. But at the same time the government did not stop them and looked the other way; they did not prosecute these men.

By 1986, these Canadian Vietnam Veterans became organized.

In 1995, the North Wall was erected in Windsor with government assistance. The municipal council donated that land while the Veterans raised funds for the memorial. I don't think Canada has memorials for each war since the country has the National War Memorial, so would this be the only memorial dedicated to an individual war (at least in this century?)?

Canada also served in a peace keeping/truce monitoring functions (this time under a government directive).

So did Canada, the country, send troops? Yes.

Did Canada's government send troops? No, but they sure did look the other way during the war and did donate public lands for their memorial after the war.

-Rudey

[RACooper]

You can try and defend Ann Coulter's misguided perceptions about Canada - Vietnam and otherwise - but unfortunately there is really no dancing around the issue that she was dead wrong (again).

Originally posted by Rudey
Well, yes and no. The number of Canadians who fought with the US army is estimated to surpass the number of Americans who dodged the draft to move to Canada. 6 Canadians are still MIA/POW from the war I think.

Canada's government did not send troops to fight in the war and when these troops returned they faced a lot of nastiness - especially from the dick Americans living in Canada. But at the same time the government did not stop them and looked the other way; they did not prosecute these men.

By 1986, these Canadian Vietnam Veterans became organized.

Though still not recognized by the government as veterans nor by the Royal Canadian Legion as such either... basically it means they get no benefits (health or otherwise) that veteran status would entail.

In 1995, the North Wall was erected in Windsor with government assistance. The municipal council donated that land while the Veterans raised funds for the memorial. I don't think Canada has memorials for each war since the country has the National War Memorial, so would this be the only memorial dedicated to an individual war (at least in this century?)?

Hmmm someone has been a little mis-informed

Alright other than the individual community monuments or memorials I'll list the "National" ones dedicated to particular wars:

In the 19th century...
War of 1812 (Queenston Heights, ON), Crimean War (Halifax, NS)

In the 20th century...
Boer War (Lydenburg, South Africa), World War I (Vimy, France), World War II (Juno Beach, France), Korean War (Milton, ON), Peacekeeping Missions (Ottawa, ON)...

and now unfortunately during the 21st century...
The War on Terror/Afghanistan (Kandahar, Afghanistan)

As for the Vietnam Memorial... well yes I did recieve some municpal funding, but it was funded mostly by private donations from Canadian and US citizens - but still it is not recgonized by the Federal government nor the Department of National Defense.

Canada also served in a peace keeping/truce monitoring functions (this time under a government directive).

Canada served (and still does ) in Vietnam and Cambodia as monitors and de-miners under the UN mandate overseeing the peace following the end of the Vietnam War... so while yes Canada did send peacekeepers it was after the cesation of hostilities and under a UN mandate and mission.

So did Canada, the country, send troops? Yes.

Nice try... but did Canada the country, send troops... nope Canada the nation/country/state did not send troops.

Did individual Canadian citizens enlist with the US or Australian militaries to serve in Vietnam? Yep

Did Canada's government send troops? No, but they sure did look the other way during the war and did donate public lands for their memorial after the war.

Well you got the government point down... but did the look the other way? Not entirely - Canada's diplomatic efforts in resolving the conflict was one of the major arguing points between Canada and the US during the conflict... in fact I believe that LBJ physically threatened Pierre Trudeu because of the political/diplomatic division.

Did Canada donate land to the Vietnam memorial in Windsor? Nope - Windsor, ON the city allowed private individuals to purchase the land at a severely reduced cost for the memorial... they couldn't donate it or the federal government and DND would have launched a legal injunction.


Thing is this isn't the first time the issue of recognizing citizens who served in a foreign conflict under a foreign flag... and in the other two cases no memorial was erected either, nor was veteran status awarded to the combatants . The other two conflicts besides Vietnam were of course the US Civil War and the Spanish Civil War,

[Rudey]

Again, they turned a blind eye and did not prosecute. You said they didn't turn a blind eye entirely...so I guess they turned a blind eye just a little huh? Either way, regardless of to what extent, they turned a blind eye. Find something else to argue about because this point is lost.

Again, the government did provide assistance for their war memorial. You admit "well yes I did recieve some municpal funding". Even if that assistance is one penny, it is assistance. If the government provides me with health care at 10% of the normal cost, they are providing assistance and subsidization. Hence, the government assisted in building these soldiers a war memorial.

Again, call it what you want but having that large number of Canadians (some places say over 30,000) fighting in Vietnam while the government turned a blind eye, did not prosecute, and then provided assistance to build a war memorial could be seen by some at the very least as providing assistance and at the very most as participating.

-Rudey

Originally posted by RACooper
You can try and defend Ann Coulter's misguided perceptions about Canada - Vietnam and otherwise - but unfortunately there is really no dancing around the issue that she was dead wrong (again).



Though still not recognized by the government as veterans nor by the Royal Canadian Legion as such either... basically it means they get no benefits (health or otherwise) that veteran status would entail.

[/b]

Hmmm someone has been a little mis-informed

Alright other than the individual community monuments or memorials I'll list the "National" ones dedicated to particular wars:

In the 19th century...
War of 1812 (Queenston Heights, ON), Crimean War (Halifax, NS)

In the 20th century...
Boer War (Lydenburg, South Africa), World War I (Vimy, France), World War II (Juno Beach, France), Korean War (Milton, ON), Peacekeeping Missions (Ottawa, ON)...

and now unfortunately during the 21st century...
The War on Terror/Afghanistan (Kandahar, Afghanistan)

As for the Vietnam Memorial... well yes I did recieve some municpal funding, but it was funded mostly by private donations from Canadian and US citizens - but still it is not recgonized by the Federal government nor the Department of National Defense.

[/b]

Canada served (and still does ) in Vietnam and Cambodia as monitors and de-miners under the UN mandate overseeing the peace following the end of the Vietnam War... so while yes Canada did send peacekeepers it was after the cesation of hostilities and under a UN mandate and mission.

[/b]

Nice try... but did Canada the country, send troops... nope Canada the nation/country/state did not send troops.

Did individual Canadian citizens enlist with the US or Australian militaries to serve in Vietnam? Yep



Well you got the government point down... but did the look the other way? Not entirely - Canada's diplomatic efforts in resolving the conflict was one of the major arguing points between Canada and the US during the conflict... in fact I believe that LBJ physically threatened Pierre Trudeu because of the political/diplomatic division.

Did Canada donate land to the Vietnam memorial in Windsor? Nope - Windsor, ON the city allowed private individuals to purchase the land at a severely reduced cost for the memorial... they couldn't donate it or the federal government and DND would have launched a legal injunction.


Thing is this isn't the first time the issue of recognizing citizens who served in a foreign conflict under a foreign flag... and in the other two cases no memorial was erected either, nor was veteran status awarded to the combatants . The other two conflicts besides Vietnam were of course the US Civil War and the Spanish Civil War, [/B]

[DeltAlum]

Coulter: "Canada used to be one of our most loyal friends and vice-versa. I mean Canada sent troops to Vietnam - was Vietnam less containable and more of a threat than Saddam Hussein?"

McKeown interrupts: "Canada didn't send troops to Vietnam."

Coulter: "I don't think that's right."

McKeown: "Canada did not send troops to Vietnam."

Coulter (looking desperate): "Indochina?"

McKeown: "Uh no. Canada ...second World War of course. Korea. Yes. Vietnam No."

Coulter: "I think you're wrong."

McKeown: "No, took a pass on Vietnam."

Coulter: "I think you're wrong."

McKeown: "No, Australia was there, not Canada."

Coulter: "I think Canada sent troops."

McKeown: "No."

Coulter: "Well. I'll get back to you on that."

Sorry. It seems very obvious to me that she is absolutely wrong in this exchange -- and then won't admit it.

Canada did not participate in the Vietnam war. Some Canadians did. There's a real big difference.

As an aside, I heard a lot of college men of my generation talk about going to Canada to dodge the draft -- but don't know a single one who did. A lot of them did use whatever political or family influence they had to get highly coveted spots in the National Guard or Reserves. To some extent, they were doing the same thing -- trying to stay out of the active duty military, and stay out of Southeast Asia. They just found different ways of doing it.

[Rudey]

Some? It didn't seem like it was 1 or 2.

And the government turned a blind eye and didn't stop it. Later on it supported them through subsidization of a memorial.

Either way, yes she was wrong in even possibly suggesting that the government played an active role. But it's also wrong to suggest that Canada played no role in the war.

-Rudey
--If only Democrats cared this much about checking Moore's facts...

Originally posted by DeltAlum
Coulter: "Canada used to be one of our most loyal friends and vice-versa. I mean Canada sent troops to Vietnam - was Vietnam less containable and more of a threat than Saddam Hussein?"

McKeown interrupts: "Canada didn't send troops to Vietnam."

Coulter: "I don't think that's right."

McKeown: "Canada did not send troops to Vietnam."

Coulter (looking desperate): "Indochina?"

McKeown: "Uh no. Canada ...second World War of course. Korea. Yes. Vietnam No."

Coulter: "I think you're wrong."

McKeown: "No, took a pass on Vietnam."

Coulter: "I think you're wrong."

McKeown: "No, Australia was there, not Canada."

Coulter: "I think Canada sent troops."

McKeown: "No."

Coulter: "Well. I'll get back to you on that."

Sorry. It seems very obvious to me that she is absolutely wrong in this exchange -- and then won't admit it.

Canada did not participate in the Vietnam war. Some Canadians did. There's a real big difference.

As an aside, I heard a lot of college men of my generation talk about going to Canada to dodge the draft -- but don't know a single one who did. A lot of them did use whatever political or family influence they had to get highly coveted spots in the National Guard or Reserves. To some extent, they were doing the same thing -- trying to stay out of the active duty military, and stay out of Southeast Asia. They just found different ways of doing it.

[DeltAlum]

Originally posted by Rudey
Some? It didn't seem like it was 1 or 2.

Of course it wasn't 1 or 2, but in comparison to the hundreds of thousands of U.S. personnel who were there at any given time, the numbers are likely tiny. Same argument if the Canadian government had actually sent troops -- the number would have been much larger.

Argue (for arguments sake) what you will, spin any words and/or facts, but Canada did not send troops to Vietnam in any "reasonable mans'" point of view.

[Rudey]

Originally posted by DeltAlum
Of course it wasn't 1 or 2, but in comparison to the hundreds of thousands of U.S. personnel who were there at any given time, the numbers are likely tiny. Same argument if the Canadian government had actually sent troops -- the number would have been much larger.

Argue (for arguments sake) what you will, spin any words and/or facts, but Canada did not send troops to Vietnam in any "reasonable mans'" point of view.

Hmmm, over 30,000 Canadian soldiers fought in the Vietnam War. That number is higher than the amount of British in the Iraq war. Their government allowed them to fight and then helped in building a memorial.

Right. You sure are a reasonable man.

-Rudey

[DeltAlum]

Originally posted by Rudey
Hmmm, over 30,000 Canadian soldiers fought in the Vietnam War. That number is higher than the amount of British in the Iraq war. Their government allowed them to fight and then helped in building a memorial.

No Canadian soldiers fought in Vietnam. That's the point. The Canadian government did not send its' military. Canadian citizens and/or expats, serving in other military organizations did.

During the height of the war, the U.S. had over 500,000 service people in country at any given time. The war lasted ten years. Millions of U.S. Soldiers, Sailors, Airmen, Marines and Coast Guardsmen served in S.E. Asia.

I appreciate every single one of the Canadians who fought at our side -- but in the overall scope of the conflict, 30,000 is not a large number at all.

[Rudey]

Originally posted by DeltAlum
No Canadian soldiers fought in Vietnam. That's the point. The Canadian government did not send its' military. Canadian citizens and/or expats, serving in other military organizations did.

During the height of the war, the U.S. had over 500,000 service people in country at any given time. The war lasted ten years. Millions of U.S. Soldiers, Sailors, Airmen, Marines and Coast Guardsmen served in S.E. Asia.

I appreciate every single one of the Canadians who fought at our side -- but in the overall scope of the conflict, 30,000 is not a large number at all.

30,000 was not a huge portion of the over 2 million that served in Vietnam.

30,000 was a rather sizable number of Canadian citizens.

Again, Britain didn't even send 30,000 troops to fight in Iraq. Not only did the Canadian government know their citizens were leaving, but this number is a high number. They could have prosecuted and ended it, but they turned a blind eye. Just like if you witness a crime and keep silent, you may be prosecuted as an accessory to that crime under your state's/nation's laws.

And given that a Canadian is a native or inhabitant of Canada, these were Canadian soldiers. They were not there to fight for the Canadian armed forces. But that fact should be seen in the scope of the large number of Canadians fighting in Vietnam, their government allowing them to fight by turning a blind eye, and their government assisting them with a war memorial.

-Rudey

[DeltAlum]

Originally posted by Rudey
Again, Britain didn't even send 30,000 troops to fight in Iraq.

But Britain sent them. In Vietnam, Canada didn't.

A Canadian Soldier is a member of the Canadian military.

A Canadian who is a soldier could be an American soldier, or a British Soldier or whatever kind of soldier -- even a mercenary. But she or he isn't a Canadian soldier.

Argue it any way you want, but there is still a big difference.