CU fraternities defy deferred rush rules, go off campus

[lenoxxx]

DZNat,

Coming from a Millersville greek your statement is hilarious. I'd like to point out the Sept. 26th edition of the SNAPPER (MU's student paper) from 1997 where all of your MILLERSVILLE greeks fought like hell to get elected to student government offices to GET 1RST SEMESTER FRESHMAN PLEDGING since they didnt like the system in place. After the Greek students ran for office and consequently WON they enacted the changes to abolish the discriminatory 12 credit pledge rule. But the college told them that a march 1967 faculty senate memo said that wasnt a good idea... and no student could overturn a faculty memo for any reason.... despite how old it was....

And to think colleges are about activism and making changes...

Also as far as Millersville, I recall all my friends from MU's Sig Tau back in the day saying how the sororities "ratted" out the fraternities for "ghost pledges" (illegal freshman pledges according to the school) since they (the sororities) were mad they couldn't do it/ or perhaps just couldn't get away with it.

So in closing, DZNat, keep on drinking that Millersville Kool-Aid when they serve it up.

Lenoxxx
Shippensburg Univ Grad

[PM_Mama00]

Originally posted by lenoxxx
DZNat,

Coming from a Millersville greek your statement is hilarious. I'd like to point out the Sept. 26th edition of the SNAPPER (MU's student paper) from 1997 where all of your MILLERSVILLE greeks fought like hell to get elected to student government offices to GET 1RST SEMESTER FRESHMAN PLEDGING since they didnt like the system in place. After the Greek students ran for office and consequently WON they enacted the changes to abolish the discriminatory 12 credit pledge rule. But the college told them that a march 1967 faculty senate memo said that wasnt a good idea... and no student could overturn a faculty memo for any reason.... despite how old it was....

And to think colleges are about activism and making changes...

Also as far as Millersville, I recall all my friends from MU's Sig Tau back in the day saying how the sororities "ratted" out the fraternities for "ghost pledges" (illegal freshman pledges according to the school) since they (the sororities) were mad they couldn't do it/ or perhaps just couldn't get away with it.

So in closing, DZNat, keep on drinking that Millersville Kool-Aid when they serve it up.

Lenoxxx
Shippensburg Univ Grad

Maybe you should stop drinking the Kool-Aid and realize that DZNat is on that campus NOW and not 8 years ago in 1997. Things change.

[roqueemae]

Originally posted by lenoxxx
And to think colleges are about activism and making changes...

Who ever said this? I think colleges are about learning and teaching. But I did not do to a hippie school. Maybe it is different other places...

[Alpha Sig Scott]

Originally posted by Firehouse
Dear Dznat187:
Part of the answer lies in the fact that men are very competitive by nature. Men and women do not think at all alike when it comes to rush. Women's rush is highly controlled and structured. Men's rush has few rules and success often depends on hustle. Fraternities can pledge as many or as few men as they want, and the chapters can grow as large as they want. It's a free enterprise system in which any individual fraternity is free to win, or to fail.
In that atmosphere of free competition and free enterprise, it's infuriating to have an administrator make an arbitrary decision which, one suspects, is based on a their desire to preen for the camera and use fraternities as scapegoats.
Set aside the probability that the university's decision is illegal. Apparently, their decision applies to no other student organizations. Freshmen can still play varsity sports, can still join the various religious and political organizations, and yes, even social organizations. They're told they can participate in anything as freshmen, they just can't join an IFC fraternity.
Why don't the sororities just be like the men? Why can't a sorority be as large and as dominating as they want? Why can't they pledge as many girls as they want? The answer is: because they don't want to be in that environment. Men instinctively establish heirachy, within each group, and among the fraternities themselves. Women instinctively establish cooperation in order to maintain stability and security.
So..."why not just have deferred rush?" Because if I was at Colorado I'd want my fraternity to dominate, and that means I'd want to pledge as many top men as I could as quickly as possible.
The very fact that I want to do that is reason enough.

Firehouse,

A very articulate and well put together post

[hoosier]

Originally posted by Firehouse
Posted by dznat187...
"Why not just have defered rush? the sororities are doing it....why not the guys too? we all have deferred rush and we are fine with it. we recruit sops and up in the fall and can take freshman in the spring. it works nicely for us all."


Dear Dznat187:
Part of the answer lies in the fact that men are very competitive by nature. Men and women do not think at all alike when it comes to rush. Women's rush is highly controlled and structured. Men's rush has few rules and success often depends on hustle. Fraternities can pledge as many or as few men as they want, and the chapters can grow as large as they want. It's a free enterprise system in which any individual fraternity is free to win, or to fail.
In that atmosphere of free competition and free enterprise, it's infuriating to have an administrator make an arbitrary decision which, one suspects, is based on a their desire to preen for the camera and use fraternities as scapegoats.
Set aside the probability that the university's decision is illegal. Apparently, their decision applies to no other student organizations. Freshmen can still play varsity sports, can still join the various religious and political organizations, and yes, even social organizations. They're told they can participate in anything as freshmen, they just can't join an IFC fraternity.
Why don't the sororities just be like the men? Why can't a sorority be as large and as dominating as they want? Why can't they pledge as many girls as they want? The answer is: because they don't want to be in that environment. Men instinctively establish heirachy, within each group, and among the fraternities themselves. Women instinctively establish cooperation in order to maintain stability and security.
So..."why not just have deferred rush?" Because if I was at Colorado I'd want my fraternity to dominate, and that means I'd want to pledge as many top men as I could as quickly as possible.
The very fact that I want to do that is reason enough.

Yes, you've said it near-perfectly.

The master guru of women's college soccer, Anson Dorrance at UNC (think about 18 NCAA titles in 22 yrs.), often writes that one of his challenges is getting the women to compete against team mates - they want to be friends, not competitors. He makes them compete in practices/drills, has assts. keep records of the winners/losers, and posts the results. Similarly, the sororities have an elaborate system, mostly imposed from above, that hides the competitiveness (and mostly insures that the best chapters are never challenged by lessers.)

Among fraternities, there's free enterprise and hustle, and the weeniest chapter can bust their butts and pledge a large bunch. If they can do it two or three years in a row, they become a campus powerhouse.

I suspect that the Univ. has fully gotten the attention of the Colorado fraternity men (and their advisors and natls.), and will do well this fall.

[33girl]

Originally posted by dznat187
why not just have defered rush? the sororities are doing it....why not the guys too? we all have deferred rush and we are fine with it. we recruit sops and up in the fall and can take freshman in the spring. it works nicely for us all.

Aside from all the men/women stuff, and aside from the fact that I completely agree that everyone should have deferred rush, in this instance I totally support the fraternities, and here's why.

The students are not making the decision...the admin is...and they are using it as a punishment. They are blaming all the ills of the school on the Greeks pledging freshmen and think that this will cure them, when in reality it's the whole campus itself that's got issues (as can be seen in the many posts about this situation). That's too hard to fix though, so they make this gesture of "doing something" when in reality it will probably not make a bit of difference. What they are doing is the equivalent of, after having arrested 10 students for vandalism, they find out they all ate banana cream pie at the dining hall so banana cream pie comes off the menu. It's that STOO PID.

[33girl]

Originally posted by roqueemae
Who ever said this? I think colleges are about learning and teaching. But I did not do to a hippie school. Maybe it is different other places...

Shippensburg = hippie school? LOL ROTFLMAO to the infinite power. I know you don't know that because you're not from here but believe me when I say that is the laugh of the day for all the Pennsylvania people.

Lenoxx's point was that the students fought for something and then caved immediately when the admin was against it. Part of learning is having the courage to stand up for what you think is right even if someone in "power" is against it.

[roqueemae]

But I still don't think college is about activism and making changes

[DeltAlum]

Originally posted by roqueemae
But I still don't think college is about activism and making changes

Obviously not a child of the sixties.

[Tom Earp]

Originally posted by DeltAlum
Obviously not a child of the sixties.

Very Obviously to be sure.

But, what happened to the days when Student Govt. did have a way to work with The Adm.?

I guess it only works when The Adm. says it does.

Basically the whole problems stem from the Organizations who caused it themselves. It is two fold isnt it? The Adm. stands back or ignores and the Greeks take advantage of it?

Then all Hell breaks loose.

[dznat187]

Thanks PM_Mama00. Our greek system is very different now than it was even just 2 or 3 years ago. our greek leaders are trying to change things for the positive for greek life, especially working with the campus administration. ive sat down with our campus pres and she is all for supporting greeks, she just needs to know what we need and want her to do. but she also has a responsibility to enforce rules and protect the students and the administration can only work with us as much as we are willing to work with them.

i personally am all for deferred rush, its fine for me. some women may not be ready to be leaders in my group until later in college and if a person can't join as a 1st semester freshman and loses interest before the 2nd semester, they prolly would not have been a very dedicated member anyway. i see alot of groups trying to get freshman right away to pull them in (using partying and guaranteed friendships before they know where to party or have time to make new friends at the school). if this is all we have to offer, then we are screwed. we should be able to appeal to students as much their second semester or after as we do in the 1st weeks of their college careers, if we are really as unique and beneficial as we all say.

also, MU is working on a system that would allow groups that are excelling in the areas of academics, education, risk management, service, and invollvement on campus to take first semester freshmen. Size and quotas are not a factor. This way groups that are doing things well (the way the founders wanted us to) will be rewarded instead of everyone being punished for the actions of a few. In the long run, this will kind of 'weed out' the groups that arent doing what they should or force them to start following the rules and being a benefit to the campus community.


and college is about learning...about learning so we can make it in the real world. and im sorry, but if this was the case of an employer telling his employee that the employee's department should not take new workers directly out of college for whatever reason and the other departments could, i don't think the employee would defy his boss and take them anyway or "fight the man." he would get fired if he did, probably. while it is a different situation, you have to look at it from different perspectives. colleges and students are changing, things are different than they were in the 80s and early 90s. the world is changing around us, why arent greek organizations? (and i don't mean rituals and stuff, i just mean the way we run stuff, approach recruitment, etc.).

i also agree that men and women have different mentalities and opinions on rush and competition. i feel the women see more of the commmunity in the fact that if one group sucks, we all look like we suck. altho, women can be just as vicious when it comes to recruiting/trying to get the same girls. we just have to realize that each group has something different to offer and that should be the selling point for them and should attract different types of people, so we are all not going for all the same people.

[dznat187]

also, greeks should be involved in student government stuff before stuff comes up that they want to change. they should care about their school as a whole and not just become a student senator because they want something to benefit themselves. maybe if they showed the benefit for the whole school, it may have gone through. plus they did try non-deferred rush a few years back and most groups did not benefit or even like it.
and right now we have no greeks on senate but we do have some strong leaders willing to work with administration for the benefit of greeks but they also have the whole school in mind while doing so.


also, MU is definately not a hippie school! in general, we just go with the flow until they bring up changing our mascot from a marauder to a parrot......hhahahaha.


lenoxxx - u should probably keep more in touch with your brothers. ur chapter pres is one of the people heading up alot of the changes at MU, when he was agc pres. a really really greek guy. unfortunately, the chapter just got kicked off campus because of some hazing of their new members by a sorority allowed by the brothers, but i think they will be back very soon. they are great group of guys. i was sad to find they let stuff happen that got them kicked off.

[33girl]

Lambda Chi Alpha is still shown as an active organization on Millersville's official website.

Also, as Firehouse touched on, a lot of the objection at CU also has to do with housing costs. These can be worked out with a slow transition from first semester to deferred rush but when it's done this abruptly it can really be disastrous to the groups' money situation. Obviously this is something that Millersville (or Clarion or Ship or Bloomsburg) do not have to deal with, as for the most part we don't have the huge dorm-type houses to fill.

[Firehouse]

33girl: Listen to what she's saying - AND SHE'S JUST FINE WITH IT! Her school is going to determine just exactly what in their mind makes an acceptable chapter, and then reward or punish non-compliers by allowing some to take new members in the fall and others to be prevented from doing so. And she thinks this is perfectly keen. Dear God. I'm amazed that our nation has reamined free for this long.
It's not up to the university to tell us what was "the way our Founders wanted us to." The Founders of my fraternity did not intend to set up a social service organization. Service is a noble virtue, but it's not the basis of my fraternity. My fraternity belongs to our members, not to the university administration. Here's my offer: let the university administration create a fraternity just the way they want, and let me create my own the way I want. Then we'll see which fraternity the greatest numbers of ambitious men want to join.
33girl, it's not just housing impact. It's the idea of being told that freshmen cannot join, or that we cannot take who we want when we want. If they keep freshmen from participating in ANYTHING, then I can live with that. But if we're the ugly stepchildren to whom freshmen cannot risk exposure, then I raise a hellacious objection to that.
It concerns me deeply that some young students are willing - even eager - to give up control of their own chapters. It's not even that they knuckle under to administrative bullying. The most disheartening thing about dznat187 is her glib embrace of big brother. She doesn't even see it as bullying. To her, the school makes the rules and that's just fine.
Help me out here, 33girl. You've always been the smartest one.

[33girl]

Oh I know it's not JUST housing - I was pointing that out to her as her school is similar to mine and before GC I would have been all "this complaining about your housing money is stupid!" I talked about the other things in my other post - that even though I PERSONALLY am for deferred rush, the crap CU is doing is bogus. If the students decided they wanted to do it that way that would be a different matter.

As for the "smartest" comment - we are getting married later tonight OK?

I'm pming you.