Debates on the New Pope

[BetteDavisEyes]

Just b/c you're not Catholic does not mean your opinion doesn't matter. I agree with whomever said that you can't agree with everyone 100% of the time but if the overall tenents of your faith are strong, then what the new pope decides shouldn't really scare anyone off.

Also, since when is being conservative considered a bad thing? I can be pretty conservative on some issues but I never thought it to be a bad thing. Then again, I'm not responsible for 1.2 billion people in the world.
As a Catholic, I have put my faith in God that Pope Benedict will do what he feels is the right thing whether I agree or not.

[chideltjen]

Originally posted by kddani
But we've seen, even here on GC, that the Bible can be twisted and perverted to support pretty much any point.

If the church wants to stay relevant and keep young people active and practicing (and, cough cough, donating money), it needs to adapt. Many young men and women in America are raised Catholic, probably went to Sunday school and all that, but when they reach adulthood do not remain practicing Catholics. Taking such a hardline against certain issues, and not even debating them or considering them or taking baby steps is not helping.

A lot of people that I know that may have been raised Catholic have converted to some other form of Christianity, because those churchs are offering them something the Catholic church is not. Be it their stance on hot button issues, or even a more modern approach to religious services, outreach, and activities.

I think it will be interesting to see what happens over the course of our lifetime within the Catholic church

I agree. There is a huge age gap at my parish and we struggle to get new members that in the young adult range. And I'm at a Newman Center - something meant for young adults. We are also poor... as are many other churches. It's one of the big issues the church faces.

I'm guessing I'm annomaly. I'm a "non-traditionalist" young adult that continued with her Catholic education and sacraments, rather than turning away from it. There were other parts of Catholism that I did enjoy (the traditions of the masses, the family like setting, the people I've met)... but just because I don't follow the ideologies of the Church doesn't make me less of a Catholic. At least I hope I'm not viewed that way.

Other issues facing the church: the sex scandals. Boy, is this a mess.

[ISUKappa]

Originally posted by kddani
But we've seen, even here on GC, that the Bible can be twisted and perverted to support pretty much any point.

If the church wants to stay relevant and keep young people active and practicing (and, cough cough, donating money), it needs to adapt. Many young men and women in America are raised Catholic, probably went to Sunday school and all that, but when they reach adulthood do not remain practicing Catholics. Taking such a hardline against certain issues, and not even debating them or considering them or taking baby steps is not helping.

A lot of people that I know that may have been raised Catholic have converted to some other form of Christianity, because those churchs are offering them something the Catholic church is not. Be it their stance on hot button issues, or even a more modern approach to religious services, outreach, and activities.

I think it will be interesting to see what happens over the course of our lifetime within the Catholic church

Yes, the bible can be taken out of context and twisted to support (or deny) almost any standpoint. From my understanding, the Catholic church takes the stance the bible is divinely inspired and therefore free from error. Likewise, any doctrine derived from or interpretation of the bible is also divinely inspired and free from error (Catholics, please correct me if I'm wrong.)

I agree with Valkyrie, I don't think the church should be expected to change completely to suit the wants of everyone. I think there are steps it can take to make the church more appealing and relevant to today without changing its base doctrine, but it shouldn't have to completely reinvent itself (Buddy Christ, anyone?)

Just b/c you're not Catholic does not mean your opinion doesn't matter.

I know, it was more of a sarcastic, tongue-in-cheek comment to those who would argue that point.

[ISUKappa]

Originally posted by chideltjen
Other issues facing the church: the sex scandals. Boy, is this a mess.

Is this mostly an American Parish issue/problem? From everything I've been reading, it seems it was more common here than elsewhere. Just curious.

[kddani]

Originally posted by ISUKappa
Is this mostly an American Parish issue/problem? From everything I've been reading, it seems it was more common here than elsewhere. Just curious.

i've heard people say that it's an even bigger problem outside of the US, only it doesn't get talked about as much or made as public

[citydogisu]

Originally posted by chideltjen
Other issues facing the church: the sex scandals. Boy, is this a mess.

1% of priests

[sugar and spice]

Originally posted by ISUKappa
Is this mostly an American Parish issue/problem? From everything I've been reading, it seems it was more common here than elsewhere. Just curious.

I read an article that mentioned that it was also a problem in a handful of European countries, but I can't remember where this article was -- I'll look around.

[honeychile]

Originally posted by valkyrie
Okay, this is kind of related -- so there are some who think the Catholic church should become more, I don't know, progressive and change with the times. There are others who disagree.

Keeping in mind that I'm not Catholic, can someone explain to me why the church should be expected to change? I mean, if you're Catholic, shouldn't you behave according to the rules as they exist now? If you don't agree with much of what the church as a whole has to say on various issues, would you be better served to find a different religion with which you actually agree?

I'm not trying to be a smartass but I want to understand this.

I completely agree. When I was a member of a church with whose theology I no longer agreed, I left.

According to the BBC, there are 1.086 billion baptized Catholics worldwide. That 1% would translated into 1,086,000 abused children. Of course, you have to take into consideration that many Catholics who later join other churches would still be counted as "baptized Catholics".

Now the weird part (for our family, anyhow): the phone has been ringing all night, because the new pope looks exactly like my late grandfather, and is from the same area that my grandfather's family was from!

[RACooper]

Originally posted by ISUKappa
Yes, the bible can be taken out of context and twisted to support (or deny) almost any standpoint. From my understanding, the Catholic church takes the stance the bible is divinely inspired and therefore free from error. Likewise, any doctrine derived from or interpretation of the bible is also divinely inspired and free from error (Catholics, please correct me if I'm wrong.)

Well yes the Bible is divinely inspired and should be free from error - but it has been transcribed and passed down to us by man, and man is not infallible (see the so-called agnostic books); and finally and most importantly it is the interpretation of the bible by man that is the most open to error (hence a earlier relucance to make the Bible available to the un-educated masses).

I agree with Valkyrie, I don't think the church should be expected to change completely to suit the wants of everyone. I think there are steps it can take to make the church more appealing and relevant to today without changing its base doctrine, but it shouldn't have to completely reinvent itself (Buddy Christ, anyone?)


I know, it was more of a sarcastic, tongue-in-cheek comment to those who would argue that point.

As for changes to the Church - the Church is 2000 years old, and changing or altering traditions/teachings with a "historical weight" of hundreds or thousands of years isn't to undertaken lightly or rapidily (well rapid for an org. of the Church's age).

[ISUKappa]

Originally posted by honeychile
...because the new pope looks exactly like my late grandfather, and is from the same area that my grandfather's family was from!

I think he resembles my paternal Grandma (it's the deep-set, baggy eyes) but I have no idea where in Germany her family orginated.

[ISUKappa]

Originally posted by RACooper
As for changes to the Church - the Church is 2000 years old, and changing or altering traditions/teachings with a "historical weight" of hundreds or thousands of years isn't to undertaken lightly or rapidily (well rapid for an org. of the Church's age).

I agree completely. It's not something that can be done quickly or without much thought. As someone on another message board said, although she hates the Catholic church's stance on homosexuality, if they were to suddenly change and say "just kidding, it's really okay!" she would lose all respect for them for turning on their beliefs so quickly.

[RACooper]

Originally posted by ISUKappa
I agree completely. It's not something that can be done quickly or without much thought. As someone on another message board said, although she hates the Catholic church's stance on homosexuality, if they were to suddenly change and say "just kidding, it's really okay!" she would lose all respect for them for turning on their beliefs so quickly.

Well the debate over homosexuality has been around philosphically and theologically since the founding of the Church - with opinions and teachings being as varied as they are today... the current debate is pretty much the same, over whether the "condition" of homosexuality is a sin, or whether it is homosexual conduct that is sinful... and then how sinful...

In this case 'Liberal' means a condemnation of homosexual acts as sinful - whereas the 'Conservatives' are inclined to view a homosexual person as sinful no matter their actions.

[kstar]

As for Benedict's membership in the Hitler Youth or the German Army... it was mandatory membership and service - service that he deserted when he got the chance... so I don't see why it is an issue.

The Hitler Youth was completely voluntary.

[RACooper]

Originally posted by kstar
[B]

The Hitler Youth was completely voluntary.

I'm sorry but how can compulsory membership and service be voluntary?

[AGDee]

I am a Catholic who doesn't agree with some of the church's doctrine. Ultimately, I understand that any church doctrine is derived from man's interpretation of the Bible. I went through the RCIA (Rite of Christian Initiation for Adults) to complete the sacraments of Eucharist and Confirmation because I was baptized Catholic but my parents didn't practice while I was growing up. I went to all kinds of different churches and chose to go with the Catholic church because I value the ritual and structure of mass as well as the meaning of the Eucharist to Catholics.

The nun and priest who ran my RCIA classes were pretty liberal, I'd say. When asked about these very controversial subjects, their reply was "You have to pray and discern what the proper thing to do is. It's between you and God". I was able to live with this answer and have clung to that. The priest also drew a big circle on a chalkboard with a dot in the middle. He said the dot in the middle represented being one with God. He drew dots all over the circle, some close to the middle and some further out. He said that we, as Catholics, like to think that we are the dot closest to the center, and that others are further out somewhere, but the truth is, until we get to Heaven, we won't really know. He embellised on the fact that all religions who believe in a higher power would be somewhere in that circle and ultimately have the same goal, being closest to the center.

While it would be nice to have a Pope who expressed this type of doctrine, I do see the Pope as a moral leader. I see the church as an appropriate institution to say "These are the rules based on our interpretation of the Bible". I cared enough to have my first marriage annulled through the church so I could marry in the church again. I haven't bothered doing that with my second marriage, because I will not marry again, so it's irrelevant. I'm ok with the Pope being conservative because I see the Pope as someone who is extreme. I think they have to be seen as very devout and Holy to get the job. I think that he's supposed to be the ideal and the extreme. I'm ok with him having strong opinions and being conservative. And, if his beliefs are as similar to JPIIs as I've read that they are, then at least he is consistent. Pro-life in all situations (abortion, death penalty, war), etc.

I'm not OK with government in this country being that way.

As far as the Hitler Youth issue, I read this interesting article, part of which I'll post here:
link

A Melbourne Jewish group has dismissed concerns about the new Pope's past as a member of the Hitler Youth.

Jewish Community Council of Victoria president Michael Lipshutz said Joseph Ratzinger's childhood should not be a focus.

"He was a mere boy at the time, let's look at what he has done in his adult life, not his childhood," Mr Lipshutz told theage.com.au this morning.

"There is no cause for concern about his actions as an adult.

"When he was a cardinal, he was John Paul II's right-hand man and John Paul II instigated great relations with the Jewish people."

Key Israeli and US Jewish lobby groups also welcomed the election of former German cardinal and noted there was no evidence he had committed any crimes while serving in the Hitler Youth.

Pope Benedict XVI has said he was an unwilling participant in the Hitler Youth movement during World War II, when membership became compulsory.


Dee