Why does it take so long to become a lawyer? Why do laywers have a monopoly?

[RUgreek]

Originally posted by James
If they can pass a professional licensing exam, why not let them apprentice somewhere and then practice law?

I actually agree completely with this point James makes. Even back in law school many were dumbfounded that lawyers enter practice without any required "practice." My friends are medical doctors and they have to go through residency in addition to being licensed. I think it's an area that deserves more attention.

[James]

George C. Leef is president of Patrick Henry Associates and an adjunct scholar with the Mackinac Center for Public Policy. He earned a J.D. from Duke University in 1977.

Originally posted by RUgreek

So basically this article was written by someone who is jealous of a profession that he/she couldn't get into. I admit the requirements and qualifications to reach it are difficult and long, but that's a lot better than the alternative.

[RUgreek]

Originally posted by James
George C. Leef is president of Patrick Henry Associates and an adjunct scholar with the Mackinac Center for Public Policy. He earned a J.D. from Duke University in 1977.

Having a law degree doesn't mean you're a lawyer. Lots of professors never took the bar or have not been able to pass them. Still, graduating from Duke would be a shock if he couldn't pass it.

I honestly don't think that 4 years of undergraduate school and 3 years of law school is all that long. I thought it was a fairly short period of time. I mean compare the length of time that doctors have to go to school.

I see it as you wouldn't want to go to a doctor that only went to 7 years of school outside of grades 1-12 like lawyers because your health might be in jeopardy. I want them to get as much training as possible if I am going to a doctor. I don't see doctors getting dumped on because of the cost of medical care and the cost of medical insurance. In turn, if I needed a lawyer, I'd want he or she to get as much training as possible. My life my get screwed over by some moron trying to sue me or I might end up in jail if my lawyer only went through minimal time in training. It's all up to how much you are willing to pay for. I mean you'd want the Harvard Medical School Brain Surgeon Valedictorian to do your brain surgery just like you'd want Johnny Cochran to defend you in your murder trial.

[DeltAlum]

Originally posted by RUgreek
UPLs were not enacted by a cartel of lawyers ... Legislators who the people vote for passed those rules, so go complain to them for passing the statute.

Isn't it true that a majority of legislators on both the state and national levels are lawyers?

That's a question, not a comment.

If so, I don't suppose I'd call it a "cartel," but it would look suspiciously like lawyers making the rules for being lawyers.

[Kevin]

In Oklahoma, many years ago, one could be admitted to the Bar on a Motion. So it was that there were actually attorneys running around with correspondence degrees, mail order diplomas, etc. Some attorneys were products of apprenticeships. There were of course some excellent attorneys here that were educated in that manner, and also, there were some awful ones.

The way I look at it though, the profession has evolved, and the law has become far more complex today than it was 40 or 50 years ago. To practice, I can see a professional degree being needed.

As far as state bar exams go, the laws from state to state, and the way things work are very different. State Bar exams try to ensure that attorneys working in a state are competent to deal with the courts and laws in that state.

[Kevin]

Originally posted by RUgreek
Having a law degree doesn't mean you're a lawyer. Lots of professors never took the bar or have not been able to pass them. Still, graduating from Duke would be a shock if he couldn't pass it.

I was told that right now only about 8% of people that earn J.D's will end up as trial lawyers.

[HelloKitty22]

Lots of attorney's practice law but don't practice trial law. Trial law is a specific specialty practice. Lots of lawyers do transactional practices, like tax law or contracts or wills. It's just like doctors, some are pathologists and never see live patients others are internists and do nothing but see patients. Neither are more or less of a physician.

Also, I'd like to comment on the point about lawyers not have to "intern" or "practice" before being fully licenced. First, law school education does include a fair amount of practical skills. When I was in law school, I learned to write a memo and a brief. I did oral arguments and was able to take a class in trial advocacy. Even though I graduated having never served an actual client, I skill knew how to do all the required skills. I know the amount of training a person gets in school varies depending on the courses they take, some people get much more and do serve actual clients if they are in a clinic and some get less if they tend toward more substantive rather than practical classes, but today it is pretty much universal that a law student gains a minimum amount of practical skills at school.
Second, the bar exam has begun to incorporate a "practical skills" component to the exam, specifically to evaluate people's ability to serve a client. In most states, there is a portion of the exam which is dedicated to writing a memo or brief or other legal document for the sole purpose of examining your ability to properly respond to a client's needs. This portion does not test your knowledge of law, since all the law is given to you ... as it would be in real life, but rather it tests your ability to use the provided materials to draft the document.
Finally, modern legal practice extremely rarely sees young lawyers practice without supervision. Unlike medicine where even as residents and interns make important decisions unsupervised, in law firms lawyers are supervised heavily even after they have passed the bar and received their licence to practice. Today almost everyone practices with at least one other more experienced attorney. Furthermore, supervisory lawyers are under an ethical duty to ensure that supordinate lawyers are properly educated and supervised in their practice. Even if a recent graduate did go into solo practice, today there is so much more information sharing and professional development which occurs via state bars and bar associations that you could find resources to help you answer a question you had never encountered. Therefore, it seems to me that an intership period for lawyers is pretty unecessary.

[Taualumna]

In Canada, a full bachelor's degree isn't necessary for law school (though it's HIGHLY recommended). Maybe it's because Canadian law schools, with the exception of the University of Toronto, still give out LL.Bs opposed to JDs. However, when U of T switched over, they didn't make changes to the program at all. Many students go to law school after two or three years of undergrad studies. They have to have extra high grades and LSAT scores though.

[Lady Pi Phi]

Different countries, different practices.

In Englad, Law is an undergrad degree. The is no pre-law. You study the law and have a practicum as well (articling). After your 3 or 4 years of study you will write an examination to either become a barrister or solicitor.

[Taualumna]

Originally posted by Lady Pi Phi
Different countries, different practices.

In Englad, Law is an undergrad degree. The is no pre-law. You study the law and have a practicum as well (articling). After your 3 or 4 years of study you will write an examination to either become a barrister or solicitor.

Isn't med school an undergrad in the UK (well, it is/was in Hong Kong) as well? I have family members who are confused when their Canadian born/raised/educated nieces and nephews tell them they have to take "Life Sciences" (or whatever) for a few years, write the MCAT and then apply to med school.

[Rudey]

Originally posted by ztawinthropgirl
I honestly don't think that 4 years of undergraduate school and 3 years of law school is all that long. I thought it was a fairly short period of time. I mean compare the length of time that doctors have to go to school.

Doctors go to school for one more year. There are also several combo programs that let you do your undergrad and med school in 7 years total as opposed to 8.

-Rudey
--There...I compared it for you.

[bruinaphi]

Warning...I am very tired right now so I may be rambling in this post.

I posted about this in another thread a while back but some states still have apprenticeship programs. I know in CA we have one. We also have a program for people who go to unaccredited law schools. If your school is not accredited you have to take the baby bar (I can't remember if that is after each year of law school or just one year). Like Rudey said there are a lot of fly by night law schools and online law schools that are pushing people (many of whom don't have undergrad degrees) through the system.

UPL statutes, in my experience, are really there to protect the rights of those charged with crimes and underserved communities such as immigrants and those living below the poverty level. When I worked at the DA's office we prosecuted a guy who had been claiming to be an attorney and defending members of certain communities in criminal court. It was a huge nightmare. While the free market may work for the average American based on my experience I don't believe that the free market protects the same population that is served by the UPL statutes. Until we have legal aid programs that serve these communities we need statutes like the UPL to ensure that they are represented.

[Lady Pi Phi]

Originally posted by Taualumna
Isn't med school an undergrad in the UK (well, it is/was in Hong Kong) as well? I have family members who are confused when their Canadian born/raised/educated nieces and nephews tell them they have to take "Life Sciences" (or whatever) for a few years, write the MCAT and then apply to med school.

I'm not entirely sure wbout Med. School over there. They might have something similar to pre-med. I know my uncle went to med school in the UK, and I know he studied more than 4 years.

I'd have to check.

[Taualumna]

Originally posted by Lady Pi Phi
I'm not entirely sure wbout Med. School over there. They might have something similar to pre-med. I know my uncle went to med school in the UK, and I know he studied more than 4 years.

I'd have to check.

Maybe it's a concurrent program? All I know is that my HK relatives find it odd that Canadians aren't officially in med school at age 20.