A newspaper editor's "Simple fix to stop hazing"

[naraht]

Does anyone have any feeling if a public (or private covered by Title IX's rulings) university could get rid of only one gender of its greek system? Any ideas for legal reactions to the implementation of that suggestion?

Randy

[Mooch279]

But it's not. The university has little control over fraternities because all are off campus. The fraternity involved in this week's death was suspended by the university and the fraternity's national office in 2002, yet continued to exist. The nearby church and the police will attest the Chi Tau house on West Fourth Street was a modern-day Animal House. The home's owner apparently didn't care.

I think you guys are missing this key statement. The fraternity has already taken steps to correct the situation, they were closed over two years ago.

Obviously the chapter has problems or they wouldn't have been closed in the first place. I think the greek system will just have to enforce their own decision a little better and try to stop groups from hang around after they have been disbanded or at least make students aware that they will be joining groups that are not reconized and there are other options.

[naraht]

Originally posted by Mooch279
I think you guys are missing this key statement. The fraternity has already taken steps to correct the situation, they were closed over two years ago.

Obviously the chapter has problems or they wouldn't have been closed in the first place. I think the greek system will just have to enforce their own decision a little better and try to stop groups from hang around after they have been disbanded or at least make students aware that they will be joining groups that are not reconized and there are other options.

The greek system *has* tried things, read http://www.orion-online.net/vnews/di.../3fbad4083602e . However, remember the greek system is a bunch of students, what else can they do? Give concrete examples where the Interfraternity council can do that it hasn't done. The National Fraternity and the school are *both* trying to get rid of it as well.

Randy

[TSteven]

I posted the following disclaimer on another thread. It was listed Chico State's Social Fraternities page. Near the bottom.

Note: Chi Tau (XT) was expelled from the University in spring 2002 for alcohol violations. Although the fraternity continues to operate, it is not recognized by the University, the Interfraternity Council or it's former national fraternity Delta Sigma Phi.

To piggyback on what others have posted, this "chapter" is not affiliated with either an inter/national organization nor with Chico State. It's a bunch of guys who formed a group and call themselves by a name that happens to use Greek letters. Frankly, if the whole fraternity system was to be closed, then what's to keep other groups of men - or women - from forming associations that are not recognized by the university?

Banning fraternities - and perhaps down the line sororities - is not the solution.

It seems that the campus culture may need to change. (Maybe even the local community.) Part of that change needs to include enforceable rules of conduct. Not just for GLOs but for all organizations and all students. Perhaps under the Student Code of Conduct or what ever CSU might call it. If an organization or student breaks the rules, then the organization and or the student is suspended or expelled as appropriate. Continue to do this until the 'old school' students are gone.

[Mooch279]

At my school we had a similar situation with a national that went local. One thing our ifc fraternities did is boycott any sorority that participated in any social activites with said group.

[naraht]

We have no proof either way as to whether the IFC at Chico tried that. Do you believe that if that were in force that either Chi Tau would cease to exist or that their rituals would involve less hazing?

Randy

[PhoenixAzul]

holy crap was that article anti-local. Blech. It does sound like these guys are trying to skirt the rules of the system....but the thing is that they AREN'T IN the system. If they're not by the IFC, then what can the IFC do to them?

[TSteven]

Originally posted by naraht
We have no proof either way as to whether the IFC at Chico tried that. Do you believe that if that were in force that either Chi Tau would cease to exist or that their rituals would involve less hazing?

Randy

Frankly, no. XT is not recognize by the either the university or IFC and the group does not have to abide by the rules that governor fraternities. Or clubs or other organizations for that matter.

As I said before, they (XT) are a bunch of guys who formed a group that just happen to use Greek letters.

Which is why the individuals need to be held accountable. Both by the school (i.e. student code of conduct) and the local community (i.e. city & county laws, health, zoning etc.).

[LXAAlum]

Originally posted by DeltAlum
Sorry. There are some schools that have abolished the Greek System entirely and survived quite nicely.

Which is one of the reasons we have to clean up our houses.

There are a few of us alums who have expressed concern that if things don't change, the fraternity system could die.

It's not a cry of wolf. Things seem to be getting worse instead of better.

I, for one, would hate to see the day that a group of us are sitting around talking about what fun the Greek System used to be. But, I've said it before, and for the most part, nobody listened.

I truely hope it never happens, but to think it's impossible is dangerous.

CO-SIGN. Well put, DA.

This seems to be yet another example of the "It Can't Happen Here" idiotic mindset coming home to roost.

It can. It did. And someone lost their life.

[naraht]

Originally posted by DeltAlum
Sorry. There are some schools that have abolished the Greek System entirely and survived quite nicely.

Which is one of the reasons we have to clean up our houses.

There are a few of us alums who have expressed concern that if things don't change, the fraternity system could die.

It's not a cry of wolf. Things seem to be getting worse instead of better.

I, for one, would hate to see the day that a group of us are sitting around talking about what fun the Greek System used to be. But, I've said it before, and for the most part, nobody listened.

I truely hope it never happens, but to think it's impossible is dangerous.

The entire Greek system will not disappear at one time, there are GLOs & chapters more likely than others to disappear. (some of these comments are brutal, but I don't think cruelly so)

At the most likely end:
The NPHC Fraternities. The number of undergraduate pledges for NPHC fraternities is less than 10% of the number of undergraduate pledges for the NIC fraternities and they run almost as many hazing deaths as the NIC fraternities. And the NPHC hazing deaths for the most part appear to be more "they should have known what they were doing was wrong, dangerous, etc..."

Private schools in the Northeast and California. The more liberal the campus, the more likely that the administration will decide that the solution is the ban fraternities. The conservative private schools (fundamentalist Xtian based) that don't want fraternities, never had them (or have a completely school controlled system, where everyone is guaranteed a place).


At the less likely end.

NPC Sororities. The alcohol is largely gone, the hazing (what there is) appears to be more mental. Even if this mental hazing gets out of hand, suicide is less likely to lead to large judgements against nationals.

NIC Fraternities with alcohol bans. I don't know if there is enough information to tell whether the NIC fraternities with alcohol bans are having fewer hazing incidents, but its either positive in that regard or (if it's a wash) at least is positive PR (in situations where every little bit helps).

Public Schools especially in the south. There it is viewed by some as a significant part of the school culture. SEC & Big 12 schools are probably the best examples.


Or to put it another way, just because Omega Psi Phi (NPHC-fraternity) gets driven to only doing graduate chapter pledging, doesn't mean that Delta Gamma has months to live...

Randy

[33girl]

Originally posted by LXAAlum
CO-SIGN. Well put, DA.

This seems to be yet another example of the "It Can't Happen Here" idiotic mindset coming home to roost.

It can. It did. And someone lost their life.

The Greek system has done all it can to get rid of this fraternity, but it keeps going on. What are we supposed to do? Get the recognized fraternities to firebomb the house and kill the members?

I mean, continually telling Greeks to do something when they've already done all they can is kind of insulting. Once again, this appears to me to be more of a statement on the caliber of the students the school is recruiting. They're the ones who continue to join fraternities that have a well documented reputation for hazing. And don't give me that peer pressure/I didn't know BS either. This is the most well informed generation ever, and it takes about half a second to google "chico fraternity hazing."

[Tom Earp]

Here in once again is the Problem Tri Fold.

Anytime there is A Organizatin with Greek Letters, We as National GLOs take a lot of heat for this.

A Local at Alfred did something and they dismantled the Greek System, no if ands or buts.

As I said, any organization with Greek letters raise a Big Red Flag. But, when a well known GLO Organization pulls some stunt or someone dies, then while it has a lot of validity, it kills all of us.

It is like measure twice, cut once. Think before you leap per sey!

[PhoenixAzul]

Originally posted by Tom Earp
Here in once again is the Problem Tri Fold.

Anytime there is A Organizatin with Greek Letters, We as National GLOs take a lot of heat for this.

A Local at Alfred did something and they dismantled the Greek System, no if ands or buts.

As I said, any organization with Greek letters raise a Big Red Flag. But, when a well known GLO Organization pulls some stunt or someone dies, then while it has a lot of validity, it kills all of us.

It is like measure twice, cut once. Think before you leap per sey!

Incidentally, we locals catch crap for the things that nationals do. We have to distance ourselves from the bad press that nationals get and reinforce the differences between our organizations and their organizations.

[naraht]

Originally posted by PhoenixAzul
Incidentally, we locals catch crap for the things that nationals do. We have to distance ourselves from the bad press that nationals get and reinforce the differences between our organizations and their organizations.

True, and locals often have less in common with each other (especially ones at different schools) than the NIC fraternities have with each other. The question is whether, per initiate, the locals have a higher or lower incidence of problems than the NICs. At my wife's college (Frostburg State U. (MD)), the administration, *definitely* was in favor of Nationals over Locals.

Randy

[paulaKKG]

I have no idea what the specific situation is at this school, so I won't try to judge, but clearly this article demonstrates a dangerous view of the Greek community.

The author mentions clearly the "boys" are the problem not the "girls" - and I am most certain that is not a unique opinion. I heard similar debates at my school for years. It wouldn't exist if there were not a ring of truth to it.

The difference between the sororities and the fraternities is that Sororities are dry. If fraternities want to stop these kind of problems from jeapardizing the entire system, they have to do the same - go dry. Even if the problem is just "a few bad apples" clearly the perception is that this continues to be tacitly tolerated and ignored.

In the sorority system, those who break the rules tend to get charters revoked or other disceplanary action from within. National organizations and NPC at times have sticter punishments than universities. And although there is still some truth to the fact that sororities are still engaging in hazing, taking alcohol out of the equation solves a great deal of problems.

This proactive approach to makeing clear no-tolerance rules for hazing and alcohol gives national organizations and upperhand when dealing with incidents when they happen. It is a far superior morale ground to be able to say "We catagorically ban and actively discourage this, but it happened without our knowledge. We are taking immediate and decisive action to correct the situation and it we are doing everything we can to educate our members and make sure it never happens again." National Panhellenic went so far as to not only correct their behaivor, but to impose a ban on NPC members from even socializing with organizations that are not themselves dry.

The author of this article is dead on. Philanthropy or not, Alumni pressure or no, college administration will continue to allow through inaction or negligence the death of students. The legal risk alone is daunting. And as all the posters here seem to confirm - most folks think "it's not the fraternity system its the bad apples, or the nature of being a young male - they'd kill themselves anyway. " And as fraternities, you're either on the side of ending alcohol abuse and hazing or your part of the problem.

The fraternity leadership at a national, interfraternity, and local level needs to stop reacting to the problem and start seriously thinking about. I worry not about the immaturaty of the 17-22 year old collegiates but rather the imaturaty of the adult alumni to take the decisive action to make all fraternities dry. Honestly, if the brotherhood can't exist without hazing and substance abuse, I can't blame anyone else for thinking poorly of it.

I don't want to be holy-than-thou about how great the sorority system is over the fraternity system - we have our own challenges for sure. But it does irk me to see that National Fraternities still fail to see the problem even as people continue to call for the complete ban of the entire system.


Paula