What's Your Priority?

[Ideal08]

Originally posted by Love_Spell_6
I just don't understand why be miserable..and live somewhere that you hate

Who said they were miserable? And who said they "hated" the country? Since when does lack of pride equate hate and misery?

[Professor]

your point is well taken - - - perhaps it says something about what i value - perhaps it says something about the things I enjoy - perhaps its says something about what i'm accustomed but I'm proud to live in this imperfect country with all its flaws and with all its injustice.

Originally posted by Ideal08
Pick up Randall Robinson's Quitting America, and read it from cover to cover. It's not about what we HAVE in America, it's about the quality of life. If you define quality based on capital and tangible resources, then yes, maybe the US is the best place to be. But if you base quality on the intangible (freedoms, equality, justice, etc.), I'm not sure the US is in a position to compete.

I think that the argument that things are better here and could be worse is an invalid one. If a woman said that about a man (No, he ain't got a job, but at least he don't beat me), she would be ridiculed and told that she could do better. Just because things could be worse does not make it OK.



There is a difference between complaining and critical analysis.

I am one of the people who has travelled abroad. I have been to the third poorest country in the world. And I am here to tell you, there are AMERICANS (of all races and ethnicities) who live there and have lived there for 30+ years because the quality of life there is better to them than here. I can't speak for anyone but myself. I know what I experienced. I have conversations on the regular with people who have traveled to "third world" countries. I have seen people CRY because they didn't want to come back home, only to go back to live. The assumption that the only people who "hate" America are people who haven't travelled to other countries is, in my opinion, absurd.

People try to CHANGE where they are before leaving, wouldn't you agree?

[Sugar_N_Spice]

Originally posted by Ideal08
Who said they were miserable? And who said they "hated" the country? Since when does lack of pride equate hate and misery?

Exactly. I may lack pride in this country, but that doesn not mean that I would want to live somewhere else (esp. when my ancestors are part of the foundation of this country). Nor does that mean that I hate it here, and therefore, should leave. On the contrary, I am not "misreable" living in the US--however I wish that our country lived up to more of its ideals, such as justice and equality for all, equal protection under the law, no discrimination, etc. I find it a shame that we are one of the wealthiest countries in the entire world, yet we have so many people here living in poverty (and, no I am not refering to ilegal immigrants). And, yes, while I do find this sad, I am one of those people out in the world actively working to change things (actually, it's what I plan to make my career)...

[Love_Spell_6]

Originally posted by Professor
your point is well taken - - - perhaps it says something about what i value - perhaps it says something about the things I enjoy - perhaps its says something about what i'm accustomed but I'm proud to live in this imperfect country with all its flaws and with all its injustice.

Excellent points!

Originally posted by Ideal08
Who said they were miserable? And who said they "hated" the country? Since when does lack of pride equate hate and misery?

Since when did I say lack of pride equated to hate and misery?? There ARE folks that call this country and everything about it evil and say they hate it..so if that's not you thats fine..but thats who I'm referring to.

[RedHot]

Originally posted by Ideal08
I am Black first. Always. I just happen to born in America. I have no pride in this country. The Olympics are the only time when I exhibit even a little bit, and I've done poorly at that this year. I am more embarrassed to be an American right now than ever before in my life.

Why are you trying to get me started, Soror???

I would have rooted for the Black girl, French or not.

I feel sad that you think this way.

[Ideal08]

Originally posted by RedHot
I feel sad that you think this way.

And I feel sad that you don't.

[RedHot]

Originally posted by Ideal08
And I feel sad that you don't.

That's why Liberia was founded. If you are so ashamed of being an American I am sure Libera would be glad to have you. My great great grandmother was a slave, but you know what? If her family hadn't been brought over here against their will I may be in the mother continent dying of AIDS, getting my labia sown up, or hungry with flies buzzing around my frail body. There are dark spots on our history, but so much has been done to rectify the past. We must maintain a positive outlook to continue rising. Negitivity is only an anchor that brings you down.

[Ideal08]

Originally posted by RedHot
That's why Liberia was founded. If you are so ashamed of being an American I am sure Libera would be glad to have you. My great great grandmother was a slave, but you know what? If her family hadn't been brought over here against their will I may be in the mother continent dying of AIDS, getting my labia sown up, or hungry with flies buzzing around my frail body. There are dark spots on our history, but so much has been done to rectify the past. We must maintain a positive outlook to continue rising. Negitivity is only an anchor that brings you down.

Do you think you have told me something I don't know? Do you? Are you spitting knowledge? You talk about the mother continent and all of its problems, but do you have any idea how it got that way? Do you think it's always been that way? Do you know what colonization and decolonization are? Do you know what some of these countries went through for their independence? Do you know that some of them are still suffering the effects of colonization? Do you know anything about the continent? Have you been there? Or do you only know what you read and/or see on the news? Do you know what type of influence America has on international trade? And do you have any idea how that affects the economy of these countries? And do you have any idea how the economy directly affects war, wages, education, politics, etc.? Do you know why you feel the way you do about the continent? Do you know what propaganda is? Do you know who Willie Lynch is? Do you?

You are in a continent that is dying of AIDS. There are Black women in America that are getting their labia sown up. And don't think that there aren't hungry people here; the only thing missing is the flies. I know because I walk past them every day. How dare you make America into a utopia where everything is perfect and no problems exist. And then condemn me for doing the very thing that supposedly makes this country so great: exercising a freedom, the one that allows me to speak my mind. There are much darker spots in our history and our present than the ones you present.

You talk about where you COULD be living, but what about where you LIVE? You live in a country where women earn less money in the same jobs as men. You live in a country where affirmative action had to be created so that there could be some semblance of balance. You live in a country that wants to get rid of the system it created to get rid of the balance. You live in a country where people die because they lack health insurance. You live in a country that cuts funding for education to fund a war. You live in a country that creates prisons instead of jobs. You live in a country where minorities make up the majority of prison inmates. You live in a country where people die daily of cancer, heart disease, diabetes,etc. You live in a country that is richer than all others, but still has homeless children on the streets. You live in a country that boasts its greatness while ignoring its shortcomings. You live in a country where the police are allowed to beat its citizens. You live in a country where you lock your doors because you are afraid of other citizens. You live in a country where distrust is expected. You live in a country where citizens are desensitized to violence. You live in a country where the justice system only works for some of the citizens.

You live in a country where everyone expresses pride in their nationality. You live in a country where people are able to sit around a table and discuss where they come from. You live in a country where everyone is not able to participate in that conversation. You live in a country where Blacks, in particular, cannot because that part of their history was kept from them by the "fathers" of this "great country." You live in a country that thinks it's ok that it happened, get over it, move on. You live in a country that does not believe the past has any effect on the present or the future.

I have no more pride in America than I do of any other armed robbers. If I leave, it will be by choice, since that is my right as a natural born citizen. Yes, I will take advantage of my "freedoms." And as far as I'm concerned, it is no different than white people benefiting from white privilege, whether they know it or are proud of it or not.

[TonyB06]

Originally posted by RedHot
That's why Liberia was founded. If you are so ashamed of being an American I am sure Libera would be glad to have you. My great great grandmother was a slave, but you know what? If her family hadn't been brought over here against their will I may be in the mother continent dying of AIDS, getting my labia sown up, or hungry with flies buzzing around my frail body. There are dark spots on our history, but so much has been done to rectify the past. We must maintain a positive outlook to continue rising. Negitivity is only an anchor that brings you down.

I don't think that was Ideal's point at all. Her embarrassment, (she didn't say shame) stems, I think, from her opinion of the present political leadership of the nation--but she can speak on that.

Are you seriously arguing that slavery, whatever conditions they left, was a good thing? Look, I'm sorry for your gradmother's and your families ordeal if they're similar to what you describe. But you can't walk in anyone's shoes but your own. If your American experience has been great, then you get to lead the parade. But you limit your credibility, IMO, to suggest that everybody else on matters of state must somehow see as you see, and hear as you hear. ...all that usually gets you is "tuned out."

[RedHot]

Yes we have injustice in this country. No I am not happy about slavery. Still I am greatful for the opportunities that I have in this country. I am sorry that you have so much hate in your hearts.....

[Ideal08]

Originally posted by RedHot
I am sorry that you have so much hate in your hearts.....

Again with the "hate," huh? Reading is most definitely fundamental.

[TonyB06]

Originally posted by RedHot
Yes we have injustice in this country. No I am not happy about slavery. Still I am greatful for the opportunities that I have in this country. I am sorry that you have so much hate in your hearts.....

No, you got it wrong. I don't hate anybody. I asked you questions based on your comments and suggested that you misinterpreted what Ideal08 said.

[Sugar_N_Spice]

Originally posted by RedHot
I am sorry that you have so much hate in your hearts.....

No one is saying that they "hate" anything/anyone...You have your opinion, and other people have theirs. Please do not try and make people feel bad/ignorant/etc. (my own words--no one elses) for not agreeing with you...

Originally posted by Ideal08
Again with the "hate," huh? Reading is most definitely fundamental.

Hmmm...ya think?! BTW Ideal, eloquently stated rant...

[Conskeeted7]

Getting back to the point of a lack of pride...what is it exactly about the United States that makes it worthy of living in, but not worthy of pride?

Now keep in mind that pride does not mean that you love EVERY aspect of what the US has to offer. I am not oblivious to the problems in the United States. However, I am still very proud to be a citizen of this country. I am proud to call it my home.

Pride means that you have a sense of dignity, value or esteem. So, when you say that you do not have a sense of pride for your country, you are making a strong statement.

I too have travelled abroad and it was there that I developed my deepened level of patriotism. The level of pride that people from other nations have in their homelands cannot be ignored. They are proud of their culture. They know their faults, but do not lose sight of the tie that will forever bind them to their country of origin.

With the massive globalization of our world, many of the products, services, even mentalities, that we call our own in the US are being observed and maintained abroad. So, if it is so difficult to be proud of your US heritage, why not find a more suitable country to call home?

[Ideal08]

Originally posted by Conskeeted7
Getting back to the point of a lack of pride...what is it exactly about the United States that makes it worthy of living in, but not worthy of pride?

Now keep in mind that pride does not mean that you love EVERY aspect of what the US has to offer.

Pride means that you have a sense of dignity, value or esteem. So, when you say that you do not have a sense of pride for your country, you are making a strong statement.

So, if it is so difficult to be proud of your US heritage, why not find a more suitable country to call home?

Let's see. You know how people live in the projects, right? There are people who like it there and people who want to move. If you live in the projects, should you be proud that you live there? Do you ignore the circumstances of how you ended up in the projects in the first place? What is it exactly about the projects that makes them worthy of living in, but not worthy of pride? Do you see what I'm saying?

I believe in the IDEALs of America. I do not believe that we are living up to those ideals. Yes, I am making a strong statement. My value system differs greatly from the value system of most Americans. I don't care to be rich. I don't care if my children have more wealth than me. I don't care about what type of car I drive. I don't care about what name is on the tag of my clothes. I don't care about CAPITAL. I care about justice. I care about love. I value integrity. I value education. I care about equality. I value freedom. My value system is different. Is it so bad to want this country and its citizens to live up to its ideals? Dignity? What dignity? How many people have died for a war that is based on a LIE? Where is the dignity and honor in that???

When you travelled abroad, where did you go? Another first-world country? Did you have to explain racism? Did you have to explain why, with all of its wealth, there are still homeless people here? Did you have to explain why we have people monitor other countries' elections, but no one to watch our own? Did you have to explain why the American people didn't fight the government after the 2000 election? Did you have to explain why our foreign aid is less than one half of one percent of our national budget? How did you explain that a country (that started a war to supposedly help the people of that country) only spends about .03% of its budget helping people in other countries? Did you have anyone make jokes about your police system? Did you sit and watch BBC with the citizens of the country that you visited and talk about world issues with them? Did you compare crime rates? What about drugs and alcohol: are they a huge problem? If so, how did you feel during the conversations? Were you proud AT THE EXACT MOMENT that you were having these conversations?

Why is it ok to be embarrassed by black folks? You CRINGE when black folks act a fool on the news or anywhere else in public. You are proud to be black, but the moment one of your people gets on TV and cuts the fool, you are embarrassed all of a sudden. What is the difference between that and my embarrassment of America right now? Did anyone miss that part of my original post? The "right now" part? Or did everyone assume that I have always been and always will be embarrassed to be an American?

Who said that I WASN'T looking for a more suitable country to call home? You can do a search and see that we have already discussed the fact that I may be posting to this site from Africa one day. Or who knows where else. That's no secret. But even if I wasn't, so what? Just like being proud doesn't mean that you love EVERY aspect of the country, a lack of pride doesn't mean that you hate EVERY aspect. I like the fact that I can be free to say what I want. But when what I say goes against the grain, it's not so cool anymore, is it? But if I want to critique this country that, by birth, is my right. And I don't have to leave if I don't want to. That, too, is my right.

Trust me when I say, the way you feel about me having no pride in America RIGHT NOW is the exact same way I feel about you being so proud. It reminds me that not all of the slaves wanted to be freed.

It is clear to me that those who are patriotic will remain that way, and those that aren't will remain that way. Soooooooooo, we can agree to disagree.