Idaho Courthouse Floor Sports a Swastika

[33girl]

The point is that the Nazis didn't CREATE the swastika - they STOLE it.

Although ktsnake's right - in a courthouse, where anyone and everyone passes through (and often not in the best mood) keeping it there is just going to open a giant can of worms. If it was tile in someone's private office, that would be different.

[Rudey]

Who called you a Nazi?

Chuck I asked where your interest is in educating people on what the swastika used to be. You read about history and WWII. Great. What is your interest in educating people on what the swastika used to be??

-Rudey

Originally posted by AlphaSigOU
Before ANYONE gets ANY ideas twisted in their minds that I am a closet brown-shirted-goose-stepping-Nazi-lover, let me set a couple of things straight:

One of my interests is reading about history, specifically World War II and the Third Reich. What Adolf Hitler and his Nazis did to the world at large during World War II, especially to the Jews and anyone not meeting the 'Aryan' standard is a horrifying example of man's inhumanity to man.Never again should we sit complacently and watch someone impose his twisted will upon any country again. 'Know thine enemy' should be the watchword everyone should remember.

If German racial laws of the time applied to me, I wouldn't qualify as an 'Aryan', I'd be considered a 'bastard'. My membership in the Masonic Fraternity would have been enough to have been taken in for 'questioning' by the Gestapo. If I were a prominent Freemason (say, a Grand Lodge officer), it would have been a one-way trip to a concentration camp.

I grew up in a predominantly Jewish neighborhood in Miami, where it was common to see older people wearing concentration camp ID tattoos on their forearms. I've listened to first-hand experiences of concentration camp survivors; when I hear pathetic examples of 'revisionist' history claiming the Holocaust is a fabrication, my blood boils.

[aurora_borealis]

There is no valid equation of blackface and preNazi use of a changed swastika. Blackface was created as a way to humiliate a group. The original, swastika was used as a symbol of many cultures for thousands of years, and not to dehumanize or impersonate people.

It is only going to offend people if they are not given the history of the original image. Not only will they be able to realize the difference in the images, but also the groups that have negatively been affected will once again be able to have pride in their history.

[Rudey]

Originally posted by aurora_borealis
There is no valid equation of blackface and preNazi use of a changed swastika. Blackface was created as a way to humiliate a group. The original, swastika was used as a symbol of many cultures for thousands of years, and not to dehumanize or impersonate people.

It is only going to offend people if they are not given the history of the original image. Not only will they be able to realize the difference in the images, but also the groups that have negatively been affected will once again be able to have pride in their history.

And some say they are doing it now not to humiliate people. Why can't you follow the argument? It seems you often have that difficulty.

And on top of that nobody equated anything. Both are awful things and it seems that there are a ton of people who seem to all of a sudden call people PC, or take up a cause for no reason. What is your cause and interest in this?? Why are you so interested in people learning about the true history of the swastika? Please tell us. Tell me what it is that gets you to exert energy doing searches and coming on GC to provide these arguments.

-Rudey

[aurora_borealis]

Originally posted by Rudey
And some say they are doing it now not to humiliate people. Why can't you follow the argument? It seems you often have that difficulty.

And on top of that nobody equated anything. Both are awful things and it seems that there are a ton of people who seem to all of a sudden call people PC, or take up a cause for no reason. What is your cause and interest in this?? Why are you so interested in people learning about the true history of the swastika? Please tell us. Tell me what it is that gets you to exert energy doing searches and coming on GC to provide these arguments.

-Rudey

I am not defending blackface, and I never will. There is no argument to follow, as the two are not the same. As I said, one was created for hate, the other had no association until Hitler. It is still not an identical image.

Why do I have an interest and a cause here?
1) I find it important to know history, and be informed. Without this I would be angry at the wrong thing. To know of the world and other people, places, and things, is power.

2) I spent a lot of time living with and studying Native American cultures. So many of these people have vanishing history. Why should their culture have to suffer and be hidden because someone else took a similar symbol and used it for hate? This isn't just Native American history, this is U.S. and World history.

3) I live in the Pacific Northwest. This is local architecture, and on the Register of National Historic Places. The building has been selected to be preserved, and since the symbol is not the exact same (and people won't ever know that it isn't unless they are educated), altering it is not going to aid in that education. Destroying a floor will not change the past.

4) There is an antique item in my family home with the original symbol that predates 1900. I grew up with first knowing this as a symbol of good luck, and then how it was changed to one of hate.

5) I am a firm believer in "never again". By talking about it and educating people, Never Again will be a reality. The power of hate is taken away.

[Rudey]

There was no reason to erase my post and I said:
1) I didn't equate them
2) You have no interest or connection in it and are talking jibberish.
3) You have difficulty following a simple argument. Take that for what you will.
4) Also I never brought up my background (as you did in the post that was deleted), you did.

-Rudey
--Thank you genius moderator

Originally posted by aurora_borealis
I am not defending blackface, and I never will. There is no argument to follow, as the two are not the same. As I said, one was created for hate, the other had no association until Hitler. It is still not an identical image.

Why do I have an interest and a cause here?
1) I find it important to know history, and be informed. Without this I would be angry at the wrong thing. To know of the world and other people, places, and things, is power.

2) I spent a lot of time living with and studying Native American cultures. So many of these people have vanishing history. Why should their culture have to suffer and be hidden because someone else took a similar symbol and used it for hate? This isn't just Native American history, this is U.S. and World history.

3) I live in the Pacific Northwest. This is local architecture, and on the Register of National Historic Places. The building has been selected to be preserved, and since the symbol is not the exact same (and people won't ever know that it isn't unless they are educated), altering it is not going to aid in that education. Destroying a floor will not change the past.

4) There is an antique item in my family home with the original symbol that predates 1900. I grew up with first knowing this as a symbol of good luck, and then how it was changed to one of hate.

5) I am a firm believer in "never again". By talking about it and educating people, Never Again will be a reality. The power of hate is taken away.

[KSig RC]

oh my f-ing god . . . do you even read your own posts? This one has GOT to be a joke . . .

Arts and Crafts? Shut up, are you kidding me?



OK - you obviously didn't get my last, succinct, intellectually-dominating post . . . so here it is:

Occam's razor.

Education? EDUCATION? OK - you want to set up an interactive stand to promote learning about how an exceptionally minor symbol to a subset of the Native American population was subversed and made into the WORLD'S LARGEST REPRESENTATIVE SYMBOL FOR HATE.

This symbol played a large role in ONE OF THE LARGEST ACTS OF GENOCIDE EVER (yeah, I know about King Leopold, so I'll qualify it for your poor argumentation).

You want to turn what is essentially an anachronism on the floor of a backwater courthouse into something that will eliminate hate worldwide. Fine, how noble. But how obtuse is this reasoning? Jesus, it's just nonsense, it's idyllic tripe. Sorry, it's just garbage - why not just REMOVE the anachronism? I know that doesn't put you on the white stallion, and that must be disappointing . . . but for the love of everything holy, why would you even consider LEAVING a swastika . . . in a public building . . . to facilitate the possibility of some non sequitur discussion of a culture inherently unrelated to why the symbol is considered offensive?

So . . . Gregory de Ockham says, in short, the simplest solution is most likely the best.

In this case, as in most . . . it is overwhelmingly correct.

Arts and fucking crafts. Wow.

Originally posted by aurora_borealis
I did some thinking about this, and I think they should leave the floor as is, and use the money that would have been used to remove it, to make an interactive educational tool to explain the differences between the two. There can be different aspects in the exhibit. People who experience will learn geography (all parts of the world that used this symbol), Arts & Crafts, American History (Native Americans), World History (the change of the symbol by Hitler), and hopefully with all that they will come away knowing what happened in WWII Germany, and why it "never again" is so important. By educating people it removes the hateful associations, and therefore the power is returned to those cultures that are being punished for Hitler changing it for his evil purposes. A similar turn around has been done with the gay community and the pink triangle. The pink triangle was used in Nazi Germany to identify sexual deviants, and is now a symbol that was used in the gay rights movement.

I also think, that removing symbols of other cultures, specifically Native North American cultures, is bigger problem. It may just be a floor in the Bonneville County Courthouse, but the symbol is in many other places. Should the Capitol Building in DC be next, or the Philadelphia Museum of Art? The article below mentions that historical pieces of these people are hidden away because of Hitler, and they stopped using that design because of him. Why keep letting his hate oppress the history and culture of people that lived here for thousands of years?

http://www.collectorsguide.com/fa/fa086.shtml

[Rudey]

I wish you'd post more often. I smile when I see you on GC. Is that gay?

-Rudey

Originally posted by KSig RC
oh my f-ing god . . . do you even read your own posts? This one has GOT to be a joke . . .

Arts and Crafts? Shut up, are you kidding me?



OK - you obviously didn't get my last, succinct, intellectually-dominating post . . . so here it is:

Occam's razor.

Education? EDUCATION? OK - you want to set up an interactive stand to promote learning about how an exceptionally minor symbol to a subset of the Native American population was subversed and made into the WORLD'S LARGEST REPRESENTATIVE SYMBOL FOR HATE.

This symbol played a large role in ONE OF THE LARGEST ACTS OF GENOCIDE EVER (yeah, I know about King Leopold, so I'll qualify it for your poor argumentation).

You want to turn what is essentially an anachronism on the floor of a backwater courthouse into something that will eliminate hate worldwide. Fine, how noble. But how obtuse is this reasoning? Jesus, it's just nonsense, it's idyllic tripe. Sorry, it's just garbage - why not just REMOVE the anachronism? I know that doesn't put you on the white stallion, and that must be disappointing . . . but for the love of everything holy, why would you even consider LEAVING a swastika . . . in a public building . . . to facilitate the possibility of some non sequitur discussion of a culture inherently unrelated to why the symbol is considered offensive?

So . . . Gregory de Ockham says, in short, the simplest solution is most likely the best.

In this case, as in most . . . it is overwhelmingly correct.

Arts and fucking crafts. Wow.

[KSig RC]

Originally posted by Rudey
I wish you'd post more often. I smile when I see you on GC. Is that gay?

-Rudey

a wise man once told me, it's only gay if the balls touch

[aurora_borealis]

I am sorry that you don't agree with my opinion or ideas. I would be more open to discussion without the profanity and ad hominem attacks. If anyone would like to discuss the issue, without name calling, ridicule, and emotional pleas, I will be happy to discuss it.

I don't think continued misinformation and lack of knowledge on swastikas, nor the removal of preNazi swastikas is the best way to deal with the situation. It isn't "an exceptionally minor symbol to a subset of the Native American population", please research and realize it is not "exceptionally minor" to many groups of North America and the world. The symbol ceased to be the same once Hitler changed it for his purposes. It will only continue to be associated with hate, if there isn't education on the subject.

As for Arts & Crafts that was a general term to encompass decorative items that fall in that category. Blankets, masks, pottery, jewelry, and such, not for religious or spiritual purposes. If there is a better term, please let me know.

[KSig RC]

Originally posted by aurora_borealis
I am sorry that you don't agree with my opinion or ideas. I would be more open to discussion without the profanity and ad hominem attacks. If anyone would like to discuss the issue, without name calling, ridicule, and emotional pleas, I will be happy to discuss it.

I accept this challenge, b/c I don't really think you have a realistic rock to stand on. Sorry.

Originally posted by aurora_borealis
I don't think continued misinformation and lack of knowledge on swastikas, nor the removal of preNazi swastikas is the best way to deal with the situation. It isn't "an exceptionally minor symbol to a subset of the Native American population", please research and realize it is not "exceptionally minor" to many groups of North America and the world. The symbol ceased to be the same once Hitler changed it for his purposes. It will only continue to be associated with hate, if there isn't education on the subject.

This is quite simple:

The swastika will always continue to be a symbol of Nazi Germany. I do understand your point of it being 'flipped' over a horizontal axis - however, no amount of twisting, turning, or etc will remove the association with Nazi Germany. I don't get how you can profess the continued association with Native American symbolism, while downplaying the Nazi connotation (and, in fact, denotation) - I feel you're missing that key facet, which shows an implicit flaw in your reasoning.

Education is great, but it DOES NOT remove the connotative elements present to Jews worldwide.

Your argument about it being a 'completely different symbol' misses what has already been pointed out: sure, it's turned around, but it was directly taken from the original symbol. You cannot argue this fact; as such, the original symbol will carry any later connotation put on it - and, in fact, this will become DENOTATION.

It simplly has to go from any public building, out of respect for an entire culture - the antiparallel of your argument that it can be used to promote respect for a culture. Guess what? The former dominates the latter in terms of what is appropriate in public places. Sorry, but that's just how it has to be.

Originally posted by aurora_borealis
As for Arts & Crafts that was a general term to encompass decorative items that fall in that category. Blankets, masks, pottery, jewelry, and such, not for religious or spiritual purposes. If there is a better term, please let me know.

No better term is needed - I feel it indicative of the fatal flaw in your reasoning (and, in fact, your proposed solution):

It fails Occam's Razor utterly, completely, almost by definition.


Until you can address that key point, by showing how it overcomes the simplest solution (which I personally don't feel is possible), then you can argue until you're blue in the face, but it's still idyllic tripe.


PLEASE NOTE that terms like "Idyllic tripe" are NOT cuts on you, are NOT ad hominem attacks . . . it's still valid for argumentation purposes (especially for our, or rather your, purposes).

[DWAlphaGam]

My boyfriend is Indian (from India, not Native American), and his parents have a lot of Indian artwork in their house, much of which has swastikas in it. It's not just "an exceptionally minor symbol to a subset of the Native American population," it has thousands of years worth of significance to many Asian cultures as well. Actually, "swastika" is a Sanskrit word. I had no idea of any of this until it was explained to me, and I agree with aurora_borealis that it is important for people to learn the full history of the symbol so that they don't jump to conclusions when they see it used in other contexts.