Elimination of middle schools in NYC

[sugar and spice]

I agree with Cluey. I don't like the idea of K-8 and I REALLY don't like the idea of 7-12. Like Sheila said, it may work well at smaller schools but I can't see it being a change for the better in most larger districts.

I know that I was nowhere near ready to be put in a school with high schoolers when I was in sixth, seventh or maybe even eighth grade. By the time I was in ninth I was fine and I had no troubles with the transition. Earlier than that I would have been scared out of my mind. There were definitely some things in my high school environment that I don't think I was ready to be exposed to at age 11 or 12 -- and neither were most of my classmates. I guess it's one thing if there is little interaction -- two separate wings of the same building, different lunch hours, etc. -- but in general I think that the negatives would outweigh the benefits at most large schools. The only real guaranteed positive result I can think of is that seventh and eighth graders would have better access to advanced classes.

But Cluey is right when she says that middle schoolers do best in a completely different environment from either elementary schoolers or high schoolers . . . I don't think that it's a good idea to push them into the high school learning environment or to force them to stay in the elementary school environment longer than ideal.

[ZTAMich]

As an Elem. teacher in NYC for the public schools I have a few things to say on this topic. I'm not in favor of a K-8 building at all.
My biggest concern is as follows. Sadly, in many schools nationwide there are kids repeating a grade or two. This is a big problem in the city and in my school in particular. In any given class other then the Pre-K or K5 classes there is probably someone repeating that grade. Which could mean an 11 or 12 year old could be in 4th grade. Here are where some of the issues of growing up come into play. As some have said, these 'tweens' need to be in their own environment so that the best learning can occur. If they have earned the passing grades and promotions then by all means they deserve their own building!

At my school, which is Pre-K thru 4th grade, attached to the Elem building is the MS, grades 5-8. Each school has its own admin & staff. However, some of the staff members serve both the Elem & MS which means if the staff prsns office is in the Elem. School we have big teenagers walking thru our halls, etc etc etc. I think it makes some logical sense to keep 4th graders as the highest grade in an elem. building bc it is a high stress testing year. English Math & Science exams & passing grades are needed for promotion to 5th grade so I think some elem schools should end at 4th grade. In MS I'm a big fan of team teaching as well.

So in perhaps a vary unorganized way I said my 2cents here...

[kateshort]

Originally posted by sugar and spice
I know that I was nowhere near ready to be put in a school with high schoolers when I was in sixth, seventh or maybe even eighth grade. [snip] There were definitely some things in my high school environment that I don't think I was ready to be exposed to at age 11 or 12 -- and neither were most of my classmates. [snip]

But Cluey is right when she says that middle schoolers do best in a completely different environment from either elementary schoolers or high schoolers . . . I don't think that it's a good idea to push them into the high school learning environment or to force them to stay in the elementary school environment longer than ideal.

Cluey and sugar and spice have taken most of the words out of my mouth. As a middle school librarian (grades 6-8 now and grades 5-8 previously), I can tell you that there are things that 8th graders are reading and studying and talking about that the 6th grade students are just not ready for. I wouldn't want to have to separate my fiction into 6-8 and 9-12 levels, or even smaller divisions, depending on reading level and content-appropriateness level.

Middle school is where the kids start to realize that the world isn't black and white, but still (sometimes) have faith in their parents and teachers. They're ready to switch classrooms and have lockers, but need the support of a common team of teachers and students for 90% of their classes.

My school is broken up into grade level pods for this purpose-- 6th grade in one pod split up into 4 teams of ~90 kids, with the same teacher for reading, language arts, jaguar (think study hall plus reading plus character counts and service projects), and one of their core classes, and have two other team teachers for their other two core classes (math, sci, soc. studies). They have one period of PE/health, and one period of exploratory (8 different things like art, choir, tech, drama, careers, world cultures, keyboarding, etc. that they have for 4.5 week slots throughout the year). They *need* to be able to try out different elective classes while getting a lot of elementary-like support.

In 7th and 8th grade, they're on two teams of 150 kids each. Four core teachers (Eng., sci, SS, math) and one exploratory teacher that has the overflow study hall. More rotation, a little less structure. They can take 4 exploratories each of two periods, or have a year-long band or language class in 7th grade, and pick 2 exploratories in 8th grade.

This helps them find out what they're good at. The whole philosophy is gradually lessening the support while they see what they need and how to do it. LOTS of character education in my building, aimed more at service projects and responsibility. This is where they can start debating ethics and really start seeing the good and bad consequences of their choices in life.

When I was in middle school, it was 7th and 8th grade. I was in a team, but it didn't feel like the rest of the school had teams (it was a gifted program in a magnet school). We had 4 electives that we could take, but it was definitely confusing! And yet, it was nice to have that transition between elementary and middle and high school.

[Taualumna]

Kate,

What if younger students want to read high school level books but aren't able to because their library doesn't carry it? When I was in Grade 8, I was able to access the same sources as those who were in say, OAC (aka "Grade 13" or the fifth year of high school in Ontario. It doesn't exist anymore) and I found that it enhanced my learning abilities. None of the books were separated into learning and age appropriateness. But maybe the 7-12 system only works well in smaller districts and in schools where kids are of similar ability in terms of learning.

[Rudey]

This is great for all those guys who used to date young girls. You have no idea how gross it is that you'll be in junior high and girl would get picked up in their cars by their 21 year old boyfriends. Now all the older messed up guys can just do that in the same building.

-Rudey

[AGDee]

When I worked in adolescent pscych, I found that the kids coming from school districts that were 7-12 did everything a little bit earlier. Granted, I was exposed to a special population, but when the 7th graders were exposed to the smoking, drinking, drugs, dating scene, gang involvement, etc. earlier, they tended to start these things earlier. Their idea of who their peer group is definitely changed as they identified with the older kids. From a social/emotional development view point, I believe they are better off separated. I also think that K-8, conversely, would stifle the social/emotional development of those 7th and 8th graders. The school district my kids attend has K-5, 6-8, and 9-12 and I like it that way.

On a side note, my daughter is in 4th grade, tested out at a 12th grade reading level and is encouraged to read 7th/8th grade level books in school (of which there are plenty). There are also public libraries for more advanced books. As one of her teachers pointed out (when she was in second grade).. just because a child is capable of reading at a much higher level, doesn't mean the content/subject matter of much higher level books is appropriate for them. She told a story of a 2nd grade boy who was working in the 5th grade level for reading and picked out "Are You There God, It's Me, Margaret?" to read. She got a call from that young boy's mom!

Dee

[Taualumna]

Originally posted by AGDee
When I worked in adolescent pscych, I found that the kids coming from school districts that were 7-12 did everything a little bit earlier. Granted, I was exposed to a special population, but when the 7th graders were exposed to the smoking, drinking, drugs, dating scene, gang involvement, etc. earlier, they tended to start these things earlier. Their idea of who their peer group is definitely changed as they identified with the older kids. From a social/emotional development view point, I believe they are better off separated. I also think that K-8, conversely, would stifle the social/emotional development of those 7th and 8th graders. The school district my kids attend has K-5, 6-8, and 9-12 and I like it that way.

On a side note, my daughter is in 4th grade, tested out at a 12th grade reading level and is encouraged to read 7th/8th grade level books in school (of which there are plenty). There are also public libraries for more advanced books. As one of her teachers pointed out (when she was in second grade).. just because a child is capable of reading at a much higher level, doesn't mean the content/subject matter of much higher level books is appropriate for them. She told a story of a 2nd grade boy who was working in the 5th grade level for reading and picked out "Are You There God, It's Me, Margaret?" to read. She got a call from that young boy's mom!

Dee

Dee,

What do you have to say about kids who attend small schools that go K-12?

[Lady Pi Phi]

Originally posted by AGDee
... She told a story of a 2nd grade boy who was working in the 5th grade level for reading and picked out "Are You There God, It's Me, Margaret?" to read. She got a call from that young boy's mom!Dee

Slight hijack/

What's worng with that book. I have never read but it doesn't strike me as the type of book that's inappropriate for young children. What's the book about?

[FeeFee]

Originally posted by ZTAMich
As an Elem. teacher in NYC for the public schools I have a few things to say on this topic. I'm not in favor of a K-8 building at all.
My biggest concern is as follows. Sadly, in many schools nationwide there are kids repeating a grade or two. This is a big problem in the city and in my school in particular. In any given class other then the Pre-K or K5 classes there is probably someone repeating that grade. Which could mean an 11 or 12 year old could be in 4th grade. Here are where some of the issues of growing up come into play. As some have said, these 'tweens' need to be in their own environment so that the best learning can occur. If they have earned the passing grades and promotions then by all means they deserve their own building!

At my school, which is Pre-K thru 4th grade, attached to the Elem building is the MS, grades 5-8. Each school has its own admin & staff. However, some of the staff members serve both the Elem & MS which means if the staff prsns office is in the Elem. School we have big teenagers walking thru our halls, etc etc etc. I think it makes some logical sense to keep 4th graders as the highest grade in an elem. building bc it is a high stress testing year. English Math & Science exams & passing grades are needed for promotion to 5th grade so I think some elem schools should end at 4th grade. In MS I'm a big fan of team teaching as well.

So in perhaps a vary unorganized way I said my 2cents here...

Which school do you teach here in NYC? You can PM me. Depending on the school, I may have some questions for you.

[33girl]

Originally posted by Lady Pi Phi
Slight hijack/

What's worng with that book. I have never read but it doesn't strike me as the type of book that's inappropriate for young children. What's the book about?

I can't believe you've never read it! (God I feel old) It's about a 12 year old girl getting her first period.

[Lady Pi Phi]

Originally posted by 33girl
I can't believe you've never read it! (God I feel old) It's about a 12 year old girl getting her first period.

Thanks.

No, I've never read. Just was never interested. I think the title put me off.

I'm curious what the big transition you guys are talking about is? As I mentioned earlier in the thread... I attended a 7-12 school, and am not sure what the big transition was

[Peaches-n-Cream]

I went to Catholic school from 1st through 6th grades and private school from 7th through 12th grades. Catholic school had first through eighth grades. Private school had grades K through 12, but they had a lower school K to 6 and upper school 7 to 12. I am really not sure how public schools work in NYC since I never attended them.

I liked private school. I got to meet the big kids and be in the same clubs as them. The private school I attended was more challenging than my Catholic school and most local public schools. I never really thought about the social ramifications. I was just happy to be there.

[FeeFee]

Originally posted by Peaches-n-Cream
I went to Catholic school from 1st through 6th grades and private school from 7th through 12th grades. Catholic school had first through eighth grades. Private school had grades K through 12, but they had a lower school K to 6 and upper school 7 to 12. I am really not sure how public schools work in NYC since I never attended them.

I liked private school. I got to meet the big kids and be in the same clubs as them. The private school I attended was more challenging than my Catholic school and most local public schools. I never really thought about the social ramifications. I was just happy to be there.

Hey P-n-C,
When I attended public school here in NYC it was like this:
Pre-K-6
7-8 (sometimes 9 depending on the school)
9-12

Now, it's:
Pre-K-5 (I'm still trying to understand this logic
6-8
9-12
There's one middle school, Museum School, which goes from 7-12.

The Dept of Ed have a whole bunch of new schools developing so who knows what's gonna happen as far as the structure. My daughter is in Catholic school which is pretty small. I would love to get her in private school in a few years (I need a serious cash flow!!!)

[sugar and spice]

Originally posted by Ginger
I'm curious what the big transition you guys are talking about is? As I mentioned earlier in the thread... I attended a 7-12 school, and am not sure what the big transition was

But you went to a fairly small and rural school, right? Which I think poses a much different, and easier, transition than larger suburban/urban schools.

Here's some stuff at my school:

-Drugs and alcohol were MUCH more prevalent. In middle school I only knew one person who admitted to smoking pot. By the time I was in ninth grade, I knew a number of people who smoked up daily. Ditto alcohol -- almost none of the popular crowd drank in middle school, but by halfway through ninth grade almost all of them had tried it, and many of them drank regularly. A lot of that had to do with availability -- they might have smoked or drank more in middle school if they had had the access to it, but they didn't. If the school had been 7-12 it would have been much easier for them to acquire what they wanted. Like AGDee said, kids at 7-12 schools tend to start earlier on things like that.
- Sex was also much more prevalent. In middle school there was very little pressure but once you got to high school there was the knowledge that some of your 15-, 16-, 17-year-old friends and classmates were having sex and it became a much bigger issue. By high school EVERYTHING was about sex. Basically the same thing as the drug issue.
- High school teachers taught VERY differently than middle school teachers. Middle school teachers were pretty much just a couple steps above elementary school teachers. Most of my high school teachers basically treated us as if we were grown up. I can remember my first day of freshman biology and being shocked when my instructor swore in the middle of his lecture.
- In general the atmosphere was just much more INTENSE than middle school, academically, socially, culturally, everything. I would not have been prepared for it in seventh grade -- but I loved it and thrived in it in ninth.