So I just found out one of my neighbor got a those mail bride

[breathesgelatin]

Originally posted by Rudey
Why is it illegal?? And on top of that what makes it dumb and immoral?? This post qualifies for the "Post of the day that makes no sense whatsoever".

-Rudey

I know you're probably not going to take me seriously and you'll make fun of me but here are the concerns I want to address:

Well, there seems to be some disagreement about whether or not it's illegal. They're definately not totally above-board. Why?

Because it's a system that verges on being a slave trade. Poor women from other countries come here with no skills, no English, and expecting some rich sexy guy--who is probably not all that if he's getting a mail-order bride.

There was a situation where one man married a woman and then began abusing her. He ended up killing her when she tried to leave. Now, certainly not all males who order mail-order brides are murderers, but I argue that it's not really surprising if they are. Clearly if they're essentially BUYING a woman that doesn't show much respect for women's rights or concerns. Definately doesn't show that they care about getting to know the woman (or any woman whom they date).

It's illegal because it's not a totally legit practice, often.
It's dumb because who would DO this? Losers, clearly
It's immoral because it's trafficking in women.

I'm sure some will disagree but I've clarified my point.

[CatStarESP4]

WTF!?

[bethany1982]

Is this thread serious?

[navane]

Originally posted by breathesgelatin

Because it's a system that verges on being a slave trade.

Yes and no. My understanding is that some segments of women are esentially forced to participate by their family, a pimp-type or whatever. Others freely elect to participate because they want to get out of their country. The latter cannot be likened to a slave trade.

Poor women from other countries come here with no skills, no English, and expecting some rich sexy guy--who is probably not all that if he's getting a mail-order bride.

This is not entirely true. I watched a documentary where Russian women angrily defended themselves saying that they were NOT poor, unskilled and uneducated. They said that they participated because there was a shortage of men in some sections of Russia. Their culture heavily leans on marriage and family and they didn't want to grow old and haggard waiting for a husband. Plus, given the economic climate, they make no effort to hide the fact that they want a better life and opportunity in America. Some stated that they believed that American men treat them better then Russian men. The women in this documentary were from a woman-run agency and they all spoke English. The participants were actually quite skilled such as teachers, lawyers etc. They just couldn't stand living in Russia anymore and wanted to make their lives elsewhere.


I'm not saying that mail-ordering a wife is ok. I am simply sharing that there are more facets to this than just "it's on the verge of a slave trade".


That said, I do know that there are tons of reports of men treating their mail-order wives horribly thinking "Well, I can; I paid for her." That behaviour is clearly very wrong. Nonetheless, it doesn't necessarily mean that the woman was entered into the contract against her will.


.....Kelly

[valkyrie]

Originally posted by navane
I watched a documentary where Russian women angrily defended themselves saying that they were NOT poor, unskilled and uneducated. They said that they participated because there was a shortage of men in some sections of Russia. Their culture heavily leans on marriage and family and they didn't want to grow old and haggard waiting for a husband. Plus, given the economic climate, they make no effort to hide the fact that they want a better life and opportunity in America. Some stated that they believed that American men treat them better then Russian men. The women in this documentary were from a woman-run agency and they all spoke English. The participants were actually quite skilled such as teachers, lawyers etc. They just couldn't stand living in Russia anymore and wanted to make their lives elsewhere.

I'm still going to have to agree with breathesgelatin. It sounds like the women in this documentary were a little too defensive. The fact is that even though they claim to be educated and skilled, they are completely dependent upon men to "rescue" them from Russia. I think that's awful, and I don't see how it's that different from prostitution.

I wish that instead of growing old "waiting for a husband" these women would make lives for themselves without regard for what society has to say about marriage.

And seriously, I can't imagine anything more pathetic than a "man" who would actually stoop to "buying" a wife.

[bethany1982]

Other than the service that provides the introduction to these mail order brides, who gets paid? Who are the men buying the brides from?

[Rudey]

Originally posted by valkyrie
I'm still going to have to agree with breathesgelatin. It sounds like the women in this documentary were a little too defensive. The fact is that even though they claim to be educated and skilled, they are completely dependent upon men to "rescue" them from Russia. I think that's awful, and I don't see how it's that different from prostitution.

I wish that instead of growing old "waiting for a husband" these women would make lives for themselves without regard for what society has to say about marriage.

And seriously, I can't imagine anything more pathetic than a "man" who would actually stoop to "buying" a wife.

What's the difference between this and match.com? Not much in my book. At the end of the day this is just a little more in your face. Most of the world doesn't get married based on love - it's often based on stability.

Eh it's funny to make fun of the guy who "bought" his wife, but is he really better than the guy who found his future wife dancing half naked in a bar, got her even more drunk, slept with her and after she forced his number out of him got him to dfate her?

This isn't slavery people. That's ridiculous and belittles what actually is. The Sudan runs an incredibly large slave trade. A lot of countries come to mind that run prostitution trades where they lie to women to get them to immigrate and then force them into slavery. This isn't the case here.

-Rudey
--And Rob's mom was bought from one of these services...do you guys realize how offended he is by all this?

[valkyrie]

Originally posted by Rudey
What's the difference between this and match.com? Not much in my book. At the end of the day this is just a little more in your face. Most of the world doesn't get married based on love - it's often based on stability.

Eh it's funny to make fun of the guy who "bought" his wife, but is he really better than the guy who found his future wife dancing half naked in a bar, got her even more drunk, slept with her and after she forced his number out of him got him to dfate her?

Dude, I don't know about you, but if I met someone on match.com, I wouldn't be moving to a new country where I would be unable to function independently.

I don't see any similarity between a mail-order bride situation and a typical U.S. dating relationship, even if it started with a completely wasted woman. In most dating relationships, the people get to know each other over time and one isn't completely dependent upon the other -- at least in my experience.

[Rudey]

Originally posted by valkyrie
Dude, I don't know about you, but if I met someone on match.com, I wouldn't be moving to a new country where I would be unable to function independently.

I don't see any similarity between a mail-order bride situation and a typical U.S. dating relationship, even if it started with a completely wasted woman. In most dating relationships, the people get to know each other over time and one isn't completely dependent upon the other -- at least in my experience.

That's the thing. You see it as needing to function independently. Maybe she sees it as functioning with her husband. There's nothing wrong with that in my book.

And no, I wouldn't move to another city for a girl, let alone another country. I'm not one of those freaks.

-Rudey
--Sorry Rob, I didn't mean to call your pops a freak.

[navane]

Originally posted by valkyrie
I'm still going to have to agree with breathesgelatin. It sounds like the women in this documentary were a little too defensive. The fact is that even though they claim to be educated and skilled, they are completely dependent upon men to "rescue" them from Russia. I think that's awful, and I don't see how it's that different from prostitution.

I totally hear what you and breathesgelatin are saying and I am not completely disagreeing with you.


I have come to understand a little bit of your way of seeing things having read many of your posts. In an ideal world, women wouldn't "need" a man. However, your feminist views are likely based on a Western viewpoint. If I am incorrect on that, I welcome clarification. One must have a greater understanding of how these *Eastern European* women live. See, here is what you said:

I wish that instead of growing old "waiting for a husband" these women would make lives for themselves without regard for what society has to say about marriage.

I have recently returned from visiting my family Poland several weeks ago. That country is still in a mess from the bad workover they got from the Communist era. Unemployment is really, really bad. Things are so bad that the women cannot "make a life for themselves" even if they are skilled. Guess what? The men can't either!!! Your comment makes sense, but it simply is not the reality for these people.


Now, let's look at the cultural differences. Most of my Polish relatives are farmers/land owners. My two cousins (a brother and sister) and the female cousin's husband took me around the countryside to see everyone. At every house we went to, my cousin Mariusz and his brother-in-law, Kasik, ran outside to visit with the menfolk, to look at the tractors, etc. They left Grazyna and I to sit inside the house with the aunt who was *always* busy cooking. I wanted to run around outside to look at the farm, the animals and to watch people working. But nooooo I got the impression that I was meant to stay inside because I'm a girl.


Irritated and bored, I brought it up to Grazyna who explained that this was the Polish way - that farm women had their work to do and Polish farm men had their work to do. After that, the menfolk tried to respect that I am an American woman and thus, I am more independant. I started wandering around more and they even showed me around. In turn, I tried to respect that their culture is different than mine and I didn't try and butt in on their menfolk activities.


You see, it's all well and good to say, "they are completely dependent upon men to "rescue" them from Russia", but that's not necessarily true. Or, at least, that's a comment with a lot of spin. At the end of my trip, I discussed with my cousins the possibility of hosting them for a visit at my house here in the US. They gasped at the idea for, in their mind, the idea of going for a vacation in America is unheard of. As Grazyna told me, "It's so impossible, we don't even dream about that." They cited the surpeme difficulty in getting an American tourist visa, even with sponsorship.


My Polish cousin on my mother's side of the family (both sides of my family are Polish), tried to get a visa to the US to visit her brother who was studying at an American high school as an exchange student. She was unable to obtain one, even though her family in Poland is financially stable and she had letters from the US to support her application.


It's just difficult.


A skilled Russian woman may *want* to make a better life for herself, by herself; but she simply *can't* due to the current state of affairs. These women recognize that their "ticket" out of there is to marry an American man. You may think that they are weak and dependant; I could see it another way and say that they are actually quite smart and enterprising for knowing how to play the system! It's all how you look at it!


I have heard about sad American men thinking that they were going to find a companion from a mail-order service, only to get a mean, scheming wife who used them for everything they had before leaving. Does a man in that case get what he deserves? Maybe. But those ladies certainly weren't the doormat types you describe!


At any rate, I'm not an advocate of mail-order bride agencies. I am simply trying to point out that:


a) we should not impress our Western feminist views upon other cultures


b) we should not pass judgement on women who are living in a place where they are not free to make a life for themselves


and


c) some of these mail-order brides know *precisely* what they are doing


Just food for thought! Thanks for the great discussion!


.....Kelly

[NotYourAvgBear]

Can't believe how many people know someone who did this!!!

My favorite is the one who ran off with the guy's best friend -- if you order a hot russian bride who has zero attachment to you, I expect you will have a lot of new friends coming over all the time!

[smiley21]

it is ridiculously uncomfortable to be left at home with your father's wife from south america who can only speak spanish. i remember being fourteen and having to hear the spanish tv station for hours.

my dad says that he looks for mail order brides cause he has no luck with american women

[cashmoney]

Originally posted by breathesgelatin
It's dumb because who would DO this? Losers, clearly
It's immoral because it's trafficking in women.

I wouldn't consider someone who bought a mail-order bride a loser per se. As I stated on page 1, my parents are friends with a surgeon who did that. One of his hobbies is collecting Mercedes, he's got 7 of them. He's got a 4,000 sqft home in Palm Beach Gardens, which is VERY expensive, and he has a huge boat. I wouldn't say he's a loser. His wife divorced him. He's in his 50s and decided to get one of those brides. He might be a little crazy, but he is definitely not a loser.

[smiley21]

yeah, my dad is not a loser. he just wants a woman

[Lady Pi Phi]

I have to agree with Cashmoney on this one. I don't these men are losers per se. Some of them must be very insecure and terribly loney and see this as the only way they can find a companion. Other men may be control freaks and to them it's probably easier to control a women who doesn't speak the language, who is possibly unskilled and uneducated and has no friends or family for support.
The latter are the real losers.