Huh?

[DeltAlum]

Originally posted by Arya
gawd, this is bad. I think the lawyer are using "entire asset" as a leverage when it come down to negotiating.

No question. But what if they win? Or, what if they settle for a couple million dollars?

I've got a pretty good idea what Delt is worth, and we have one of the highest dollar values in the fraternity world. We couldn't take many multi-million dollar suits.

And then it keeps coming back to Liability Insurance Costs. As SAEactive pointed out above, his national organization paid out three quarters of a million dollars in Risk Management claims in a recent year. That's not at all uncommon, and the sad fact is that somewhere above 90% of those kinds of claims NIC wide are alcohol related.

You can argue the merits of this suit ad-naseum, but the glaring fact is that we've got a big problem that we aren't solving.

[FuzzieAlum]

A little off-topic, but just a suggestion: Please give threads more specific titles than "huh." I know I skipped over it because it because of the topic, and I only sought it out because DeltAlum suggested we all look at it.

Back on track: Even if the fraternity manages to squeak through intact, it is going to set a dangerous precedent. A lot of GLOs do not have the rich and famous alums or the financial resources to recover from this. But once it's been proven that they can be taken to the cleaners, they will be, and some of them won't survive.

It is sad but absolve ourselves of liability here we are going to have to be absolutely squeaky clean perfect. If a freshman has a beer in his room, one at the Mu Mu house, and then 20 more at his friend Bob's apartment and then dies from alcohol poisoning, the fraternity will end up bearing the liability, fairly or not, because it's the only one with money to be gotten.

And I totally agree with MoxieGrrl that the sororities need to support the fraternities here.

[texas*princess]

Originally posted by DeltAlum
You can argue the merits of this suit ad-naseum, but the glaring fact is that we've got a big problem that we aren't solving.

I definately agree.

There are a lot of level-headed Greeks here on GC, however, there are also thousands of other Greeks out there, and the sad fact is that not everyone thinks about these kinds of things when they are doing things that end up being risk mis-management issues.

Without saying this too weirdly, not everyone joins GLO's for the right reasons.

When my boyfriend and I made a road-trip to my first university (his alma mater, and also home to his fraternity chapter) I met several new guys whose primary reason to join a fraternity was to party party party.. and it's people like that that end up causing problems, although maybe not intentionally. Thankfully though, in that chapter the brothers are VERY good at being brothers. There are always sober people (read: more than one) who make sure no one leaves home drunk even if they just had one sip.

Ok, I'm ranting now, but my point is, not everyone stops to think of what the consequences might be of their actions (driving drunk, etc.) - whether it be on themselves, other people, their own chapter, their own inter/national organization, or even if there will be consequences that will effect everyone's organizations.

It probably sounds real grandma-ish ... but that's just the way I feel,and I definately agree w/ Moxie about the sororities helping out.

[madmax]

Originally posted by DeltAlum
"In addition to Sigma Phi, the Mississippi Beta Sigma Phi Epsilon Alumni Association is named in the lawsuit. The lawsuit seeks the corporate death penalty, the total assets of the national fraternity."



Those of you who fight dry or damp housing -- those of you who disagree with your fraternity or sorority "dry" policy -- those of you who say this is a right of passage -- ARE YOU LISTENING?

Maybe. On the other hand, if the house was wet the students walked to the house and then walked home they would wouldn't have had to drive in the first place and they might be alive today.

[madmax]

Originally posted by FuzzieAlum
.

It is sad but absolve ourselves of liability here we are going to have to be absolutely squeaky clean perfect. If a freshman has a beer in his room, one at the Mu Mu house, and then 20 more at his friend Bob's apartment and then dies from alcohol poisoning, the fraternity will end up bearing the liability, fairly or not, because it's the only one with money to be gotten.

There is a similar case going to trial. A 26 year old Penn grad visited campus. He spent the day drinking at a lacrosse game. After the game he went several bars with friends. He stopped by his fraternity house later that night. At some point during the night he fell down a flight of steps at the house and died.

http://www.dailypennsylvanian.com/vn.../3ec4b4ee45050

Originally posted by ktsnake
Does anyone think fraternities and sororities will disappear from the face of the Earth? Nope. We'll just have new ones that can do basically what they want, a la Sigma Chi Omega.

That's not true. I am in a local sorority and we follow school policy when it comes to hazing. Kent State University has strict rules about hazing that are not easy to avoid. While going through my new member period (the term "pledge" is even considered hazing) within my sorority if I felt even remotely uncomfortable during the process it was considered hazing. However at no time during that period did I feel uncomfortable. In fact, my sisters were very loving and respectful and still are.

Also, though locals can abide by many of their own rules such as being able to change their colors or GPA requirement to get in, remember that all nationals started off as locals. Please don't look at "Sorority/Fraternity Life" and think that's what locals are all about. In fact, the president of Phi Gamma Pi and I having an on-going joke that if MTV were to ever put us on "Sorority Life," they'd have to create their own drama because we don't have any.

[33girl]

Originally posted by madmax
There is a similar case going to trial. A 26 year old Penn grad visited campus. He spent the day drinking at a lacrosse game. After the game he went several bars with friends. He stopped by his fraternity house later that night. At some point during the night he fell down a flight of steps at the house and died.

http://www.dailypennsylvanian.com/vn.../3ec4b4ee45050

This looks like the family is aware that it's a housing code/safety issue, but the dumbass school decided to turn it into an alcohol issue. If he was killed because he fell down rickety and unsafe stairs - drunk OR sober - they have every right to sue the fraternity or school (depending on who is responsible for the upkeep of the house). That the school would use his death to impose prohibition, however, is nothing short of exploitative and sickening.

[LXAAlum]

Originally posted by That1LoudChick
That's not true. I am in a local sorority and we follow school policy when it comes to hazing. Kent State University has strict rules about hazing that are not easy to avoid.

I think what everyone is referring to (please feel free to correct me - gently!) is that by being gone as ANY official entity....

We'd most likely see a movement to underground fraternities and sororities which are even more prone to running into trouble.

[texas*princess]

Yea, I think LXAAlum has it right...at least that is how I understood it.

[madmax]

Originally posted by 33girl
This looks like the family is aware that it's a housing code/safety issue, but the dumbass school decided to turn it into an alcohol issue. If he was killed because he fell down rickety and unsafe stairs - drunk OR sober - they have every right to sue the fraternity or school (depending on who is responsible for the upkeep of the house). That the school would use his death to impose prohibition, however, is nothing short of exploitative and sickening.

I think UPenn is going to take the blame.. Here is a portion of a feedback post at the end of the article.



(1) The University had a management agreement with Fiji pursuant to which the University would maintain the upkeep of the house in many regards, including the "safety" of the house. This agreement was in effect at that time. Some people have claimed that the brothers/the fraternity is responsible for not taking care of what the University gave them; wrong. Penn was under contract to maintain the house and Penn owned the house. It was akin to a dormitory. (2) Penn was aware of the problems with the stairs, as admitted in a number of memoranda over a span of many years (including one months before Mike died). (3) Both the steps and the handrailing on the stairs violated the safety codes of the Commonwealth of Pennsylvania. Penn was also responsible for these violations.

[DeltaBetaBaby]

Okay, everyone is saying that the sororities should do what they can as well, but we already are.

Remember Alcohol-Free 2000? I don't know the exact number, but at least 16 NPC groups passed resolutions banning their chapters from co-sponsor events at fraternity houses where alcohol is present. Some groups went a step further, and banned events in houses that are not dry, period, whether or not alcohol will be at the specific event.

This was done to support dry housing initiatives amongst the fraternities. It doesn't work, for the following two reasons:

1. Not all NPC groups passed it. Therefore, on some campuses, most of the sororities can still go have social events in the frat houses. Obviously, this creates a large divide between the dry houses and the ones who can have the girls over.

2. Chapters are always finding ways to get around it. You can't have an ABC-XYZ social at the ABC house, but ABC can throw a party and all the XYZ's can happen to attend.

I am including a list of the groups, as well (please correct me if I have any wrong):

Passed Alcohol-Free 2000:
AXO
ADPi
AEPhi
AGD
AOPi
APhi
AZD
ChiO
DDD
DG
DZ
GPhiB
KAT
KD
KKG
Phi Mu
PBP

Did not pass:
PSS
SK
SDT

Unsure (not on my campus):
ASA
AST
DPhiE
SSS
TPA
ZTA

[FuzzieAlum]

Okay, everyone is saying that the sororities should do what they can as well, but we already are.

I don't think we meant the sororities on a national level. AZD, like most of the groups, was one of the ones that voted for the resolution. The issue is the local chapter sisters. Just because our nationals support alcohol-free Greek life does not mean we as members live that philosphy.

Example: Mixers are alcohol free. So after we leave the mixer at the boys' house, we all go home and change clothes, go back over to the house, and drink. It's "not an event any more," we say. Bet your insurance it is!

[DeltAlum]

Originally posted by madmax
Maybe. On the other hand, if the house was wet the students walked to the house and then walked home they would wouldn't have had to drive in the first place and they might be alive today.

Unfortunately, the argument doesn't hold water. There have been a number of instances, including one at my alma mater, where someone got wasted at the house, then drove soemwhere and was in an accident -- fortunately not a fatal one. In addition, there are a lot of members who don't live at the house, but will party there and then have to go home somehow.

As to the situation in PA, they really are apples and oranges, and I agree that the university is gonna get nailed for not keeping the building safe. And they deserve it if everything we read in the articles are true.

[Optimist Prime]

oh my god...........

What?

We can't let SigEp just die!!! If we do, then who is next? Delts, Pikes, could even be OX. WE must all band together adn fight this. How? I don't know, there are law school types on here though. Tell us what to do and we'll do it!

[GeekyPenguin]

I think the point about sororities babysitting their chapters was a very valid one - and fraternities need to do the same. I certainly have a high opinion of SigEp, I would have married a brother were he still alive, but they need to rethink their risk management policies. Their WI-Theta chapter is amazing and a wonderful group of gentlemen, but I truly cannot say the same for many of their other chapters. I think this is true for all organizations - HQs need to keep close watch on chapters, or one bad seed, like this one, could ruin the entire fraternity.

And I'm about the person only getting 6 months - I almost had my DL pulled for a year for getting two speeding tickets, but driving drunk? That doesn't matter at all.