Debate: Affirmative Action vs Legacy

[DeltAlum]

Originally posted by KSig RC
The point was merely to state that it's just as wrong to deny it ever happens as to state that it happens "often", which simply isn't true. I suspect most who bitch about not getting in b/c they weren't a legacy are likely bitter about not getting in more than anything.

I think that probably sums it up pretty well.

I doubt, for instance, that the "next" George Bush will have any problem getting into Yale, whatever his high school credentials are.

[XOMichelle]

Originally posted by DeltAlum
Probably has more to do with "Alumni Support." You can read that as "Money."

yep yep yep!!!

Also, Ayra, scores hardly tell a story of the whole person. Although it seems like this person you know was admitted because her family is a strong contributer to the school and will contunue to be, most schools like that can fill their classes with 1600 A students and still have a full waiting list. We all know that there is more to a person than tests, and I imgaine they deny many people with better scores to accept people whith lower ones but with other qualifications.

-M

[XOMichelle]

Originally posted by Rudey


Either you're telling a story of BS or that's a statistical outlier. Colleges release information on legacy statistics. At Yale, for example, the SAT score difference is negligible...2 points lower on average for legacies. These schools do NOT deny the money issue but they also see it more as an issue of loyalty. Children of alumni will not reject offers of admission as highly, they will be active alumni and help plan future events, as well as help fundraise. Considering the fact that Harvard, Yale, and Princeton give excellent aid packages, it is that money that is raised through alumni that makes that possible.

And about the kid with the B+ and the 1200, I don't mean to sound harsh, but he'd have trouble getting into a top tier school let alone Harvard with those scores.


-Rudey

Ha ha ha ha ha ha, I find it hard to believe that they would accept anyone with a 10 somehting on the SAT's too! Maybe if their Dad had built a building and they were a star football player..... but then again, maybe not.

And it's not a secret that there is opportunistic inequality in this country. There always was and there always will be.
We need to stop worrying about it in places we can't stop it (like private institutions), and start thinking about how we can make things more equal in public elementary and secondary schools, where it makes a BIG difference.
-M

[James]

Anecdotally, I know a specific person that went to the University of penn with a 950 SAT score and decent grades as a legacy.

Well good for him.

Obviously that doesn't prove a general trend lol.

However, I can make some general coments.

Rudey is correct, There are a lot of high SAT scores. Especially in the last few years. Keep in mind that the SAT was renormed a few years ago giving students an extra 150 points.

Also, most of the students with top SAT scores take prep courses if only to cover their bases. For one of my friends, 4 months of test prep was the difference between a 1000 and 1400 SAT's.

As a student government officer I have had some pretty candid conversations with administrators. And the small print that most people don't see when looking at average SAT scores is the statement:

"Where the SAT was a factor in admission."

There is a perception of prestige in having high SAT scores. So in groups where SATs are lower, they will drop them from their statistic. Thats one of the reasons that every few years the Ney York Times or someone will run an article about how College's lie about average SAT scores.

In the case of legacies its in their best interests to make them out to be the same as every other candidate. but I don't have access to the direct evidence that would prove that contention.

[UVA17]

Interesting thread.

[Sen's Revenge]

Those of us who bump old threads usually like to contribute something that updates or challenges the information presented.

[DrPhil]

UVA17 is both announcing her/his return and claimed biracialism (Affirmative Action).

[UVA17]

Thank you, Sen's Revenge, I will.

As far as the elite universities taking "legacies", I believe (like several other posters) that this practice is largely money driven. To a lesser extent, I believe it is also a matter of the legacy being a "known quantity". It's one more way to winnow down the applicant pool.

There are so many qualified students who apply to the elite universities. If every student who was actually capable of completing a degree were accepted, there simply wouldn't be enough room for everyone.

For example, 29,005 people applied to UVA for this fall. 8,528 were accepted. What about the 71% who weren't offered a spot? I don't feel like looking it up (if it can be found on the Internet anyway), but I'd be hard pressed to believe that most of them weren't capable of spending four productive years in Charlottesville.

With 29,005 applicants, the admissions committee is forced to look beyond grades, activities and standardized test scores for that little lagniappe that makes the student pop off the page. Things like every male relative from 1900 on attending the University...well, that's a big pop!

The college admissions game is, to be honest, a nightmare. It's so arbitrary that any little "in" an applicant has is fair game. That goes for legacy status, skin color, athletic ability or any other thing that makes them stand out.

My two cents; mock away!

[UVA17]

Originally Posted by DrPhil

UVA17 is both announcing her/his return and claimed biracialism (Affirmative Action).

Oh for goodness sake, Phil Do you sit in front of your screen 24/7 waiting for me to post?

You know, we adopted a dog from the Humane Society last year and we were curious to find out what breed little Rufus is. So my dad sent away to a company for a doggie DNA identification kit. Turns out Rufus is Poodle, Yellow Lab and Cocker Spaniel. I digress..... Anyway, if you'd like, I'd be happy to buy you one of those kits for your own use. Who knows, maybe you too have a little salt mixed in with the peppa?

Oh, but that would ruin your whole "Angry Black Woman" shtick, wouldn't it? Never mind!

[AZTheta]

Originally Posted by UVA17

Oh for goodness sake, Phil Do you sit in front of your screen 24/7 waiting for me to post?

You know, we adopted a dog from the Humane Society last year and we were curious to find out what breed little Rufus is. So my dad sent away to a company for a doggie DNA identification kit. Turns out Rufus is Poodle, Yellow Lab and Cocker Spaniel. I digress..... Anyway, if you'd like, I'd be happy to buy you one of those kits for your own use. Who knows, maybe you too have a little salt mixed in with the peppa?

Oh, but that would ruin your whole "Angry Black Woman" shtick, wouldn't it? Never mind!

Might one ask why you are bound and determined to torpedo your own recruitment?

Perhaps you have wisely decided not to go through after all; in that case, what could possibly be an explanation for your anger and rudeness? Hurling "insults" and taking a condescending tone while in front of a keyboard speaks volumes re: personality and character.

Or, perhaps you are the troublemaker Buddha taught us to watch for, as a test of our own lovingkindness and mindfulness.

The dogs bark, but the caravan moves on.

(As another GCer posted: testing to see if UVA17 is code for username who has to always have the last word)

[DrPhil]

Originally Posted by UVA17

Oh for goodness sake, Phil Do you sit in front of your screen 24/7 waiting for me to post?

Sure...it is your world....

It is wonderful that 10 years later you are able to update us that legacy is often money driven and the college admissions process is complex. Can't get anything past you, self-proclaimed UVA PNM.

Originally Posted by AZTheta

(As another GCer posted: testing to see if UVA17 is code for username who has to always have the last word)

GC would be even more boring if usernames didn't battle for the last word. I'm more amused that UVA17 thinks there is something shockingly profound about a Black person having white people in the immediate or distant lineage. The average Black person in certain countries does. UVA's family and history classes have failed.

[MaryPoppins]

[UVA17]

Originally Posted by DrPhil

Sure...it is your world....

It is wonderful that 10 years later you are able to update us that legacy is often money driven and the college admissions process is complex. Can't get anything past you, self-proclaimed UVA PNM.


GC would be even more boring if usernames didn't battle for the last word. I'm more amused that UVA17 thinks there is something shockingly profound about a Black person having white people in the immediate or distant lineage. The average Black person in certain countries does. UVA's family and history classes have failed.

Does that mean you don't want the doggie DNA kit?

[Sen's Revenge]

Originally Posted by UVA17

Thank you, Sen's Revenge, I will.

As far as the elite universities taking "legacies", I believe (like several other posters) that this practice is largely money driven. To a lesser extent, I believe it is also a matter of the legacy being a "known quantity". It's one more way to winnow down the applicant pool.

I agree with that. I also recently found out that (at my alma mater) it's not just legacy status, but whether the alumni parents are active donors over a period of time.

If you just donated last year and your legacy is applying this year, you just might get bumped to the general pool and perhaps denied if you have weak credentials otherwise.

So yes, it helps, but (like in some orgs!) it could also hurt if you haven't taken all the steps or understand the system.