Where is the Lord any of this people!

[ChaosDST]

I agree that we have to keep in mind that many of our organizations were founded on Christian principles. I want us to also know that putting bruises on people and sending folks to the hospital are NOT examples of pledging. Those are examples of "haze-happiness". As I said in another post, there's a difference b/w hazing and pledging. I want HBGLOs to acknowledge the difference and behave accordingly. It is completely possible to adhere to Christian principles and pledge.

[KillarneyRose]

Originally posted by Hootie:
Wow, after reading all these posts I think I'd like to voice my opionion...so bear with me!.....

Hootie, you are eloquent as always, but don't waste your time. Some people just want to expend all their energy on hatred and, sadly, no argument is going to bring them around.

By the way, I have two daughters whom I love more than life itself. If they want to pledge Chi Omega when they get to college, it will break my DeeZee heart, but I will be proud nonetheless that they have joined a sisterhood that I respect as much as I do my own.

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~@~Tracy~@~
Proud to be Delta-Z :-)

[This message has been edited by KillarneyRose (edited April 30, 2001).]

[HeidiHo]

I think it's great that we're bringing up relevant old topics, but keep an eye on the dates when replying.
Just a friendly reminder from the folks here at Greekchat.com
Heidi

[seand_isu]

I think there are some valid points in the room questioning the rites of hazing.

Good or bad, I hope everyone realizes that hazing is not just a mindless act of brutality. It is not intended to cause pain or anguish. Hazing is designed to impress some ideal upon on initiate. Those ideals are the foundation of the orginization's beliefs. Almost all hazing episodes help the initiate to realize these beliefs.

For instance, physical strife can be an attmept to impress humbleness or humility. It can be used to demonstrate that every person has limits and that those limits can be exceeded by using effort. These are called GOALS.

Mental challenges are commonly used to impress the implications of making a wrong decision, or making one too quickly. Things need to be more thought out.

Remember, EVERY member of an orginization had to participate in THE SAME activities upon their initiation, often times even more tedious or less "politically correct" than the ones currently utilized.

In response to the question "where is the lord?", I would like to publicize my philosophy. Not all of these orginizations are built upon christian philosophy and those that think that is wrong should try to look beyond their noses and realize that there is a world around them. Fraternities are designed to better a persons charecter and traits, not be an exclusive place to party (that may be a fringe benefit depending how you look at it) There are organizations that build their philosophies upon religion, and they are called chruches. Remember, you may believe in God and Christ as much as someone else may not believe. Use your own judgement to determing who can say that who is wrong. You may view this in a whole new light. If you can't, then try learning a little tolerance. You will be dealing with non-believers your whole life and if you live your life thinking that everyone else is damned for not believing what you do, then you are the one who will be screwed in the end. Please give those that differ in opinion from yours the room to express their beliefs, as you believe they should give to you. Those of you out there that a burning red from my words are an ideal example of this.

One member of my house had a particularly would have had a hard time dealing with a particular part of our ritual (this won't be disclosed, for obvious reasons) but he handled it well. HE AVOIDED IT! He discussed his disbelief with the officers and a solution was found to the ritual problem before it even started. NO HOUSE is going to be so abruptly hard on someone as to make them feal uncomfortable being there. That defeats the entire purpose. If you believe that you may have to do something you don't believe in (and I mean completely disagree with, not just be afraid of) TALK to the members about this. There is bound to exist a solution. If they refuse to yield or regard your beliefs, then simply remove yourself from the presence. No deal is final until the contract is signed. If you don't want to leave, then understand that your priorities place being a member higher than upholding your beliefs, you be the judge of your own self. NEVER JOIN A HOUSE YOU DO NOT FEEL COMFORTABLE WITH!!! Some of your best (and I mean not only fun, but experiences of growing up and developing charecter) times will be spent with your fellow members. They should be looked upon fondly. Regret is part of growing up, understand that you did your best to cope with the situation and learn from your mistakes. No orginization is going to be so blind to the difference of beliefs people have. If they are, then they will not be around long anyway. Also remember the common christian belief that no one but god can judge, so what makes you think that you can?

On another topic, a fraternity's ritual is one of tradition and respect. These are not appropriate to open to the public. All initiates are decided upon by whether or not the members believe they can and will uphold the same values of the orginization long before they see the ritual and rituals are written to impress these ideals in the individual and it will last a lifetime. They are private and not open to judgement by others (remember what I said before) much like pieces of your life. Why does this need to be publicized? I once heard an alumni say that the secrets of the fraternity like the handshake and passwords are not what really matter. What really mattered to him were the experiences and lessons that he learned from the others. Everyone has something to offer everyone else. That is what makes it great. The things you learn here will be things that you will learn nowhere else and that is what the bond truly is. I couldn't agree more.

Before I hear someone say "well if they don't matter, than tell us what they are!!", I will make it abundantly clear that I will not disclose that. People take an oath not to reveal the secrets of the house or what goes on in ritual, no matter how trivial they may appear to be. Ritual is a private ceremony. Beyond that, I took an oath, like everyone else has, to confine the secrets of the house within the house. To do so would violate my integrity, that is certainly something I will NOT do. Just wanted to address that issue before it was even brought up.

I must concede that I do not have the right to judge, and I don't think that anyone has, even god. We all live by our beliefs, and I will live by mine, but I share the belief that I have to tolerate those that I think are wrong and not see them as anything other than equal with myself.

One final note, I have to point out the audacity of those who believe rituals are evil and should be brought upon the public's eye. I am sick and tired of people who know nothing about these societies tearing into them like so many knives into flesh. Let he who hath not sinned cast the first stone. One thing I do not have tolerance for are those who have no tolerance for others; who believe it is their duty to expose what they think is evil. While your at it, let me dig a little into your life and point out all your flaws and ignorances. Let's see who REALLY has the problem. If this describes you, then piss off. I have no time to deal with people who are not willing to view their own flaws but are so eager to point out those of others.

By all means, I am open to any and all constructive criticisms, comments, and questions. My email address is seand_isu@yahoo.com and I look forward to hearing from anyone who shares a different opinion or the same.

Later,
Sean

[mccoyred]

Hazing IS 'just a mindless act of brutality'. Pledging 'is designed to impress some ideal upon on initiate. Those ideals are the foundation of the organization's beliefs.'

Many of the problems we face is because people confuse the two. PLEDGING DOES NOT EQUAL HAZING.

Originally posted by seand_isu:
I think there are some valid points in the room questioning the rites of hazing.

Good or bad, I hope everyone realizes that hazing is not just a mindless act of brutality. It is not intended to cause pain or anguish. Hazing is designed to impress some ideal upon on initiate. Those ideals are the foundation of the orginization's beliefs. Almost all hazing episodes help the initiate to realize these beliefs.

For instance, physical strife can be an attmept to impress humbleness or humility. It can be used to demonstrate that every person has limits and that those limits can be exceeded by using effort. These are called GOALS.

Mental challenges are commonly used to impress the implications of making a wrong decision, or making one too quickly. Things need to be more thought out.

Remember, EVERY member of an orginization had to participate in THE SAME activities upon their initiation, often times even more tedious or less "politically correct" than the ones currently utilized.

Later,
Sean

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MCCOYRED
Mu Psi '86
BaltCo Alumnae

Dynamic...Salient...Temperate...Since 1913

[Tom Earp]

Wow! Upon reading this thread, I am at a lose for words Ripleys Beleive It Or Not! Most Greek Organizations are founded in the beleif of a God. Whether it be the one I was taught to beleive or another!
It amazes me that when you look at ALL of the religions, there is a God. Maybe by a different Name but a God! So be it!
We started some where, but were any of the people who write about it really there? Hell No. Just words passed down to the youngsters who changed it to suit their ways and political structures!
I know My Brother LXA has the same feeling I do and that is all that counts when it counts about my Brothers, no matter what religion and race!

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Tom Earp LX Z#1
Pittsburg State U. (Kansas)

[Chiocutie]

"Hellenic Culture and Christian Ideals"

Chi Omega's Open Motto

If you'll REALLY knew our ritual (but you never will-unless you're initiated), you would realize what we were founded...hmm, let me think for a sec - oh, wait...okay...could it be Christian values? Ding-Ding-Ding!!! Yay! I won!!!

Okay, I'm a Christian (Catholic, to be percise). And I'm also in charge of initiations....wooo - and I also have morals and values...even scarier - huh?! But I'm a Christian before a Chi O and I would never praise anything before God, no one worships Demeter, the owl, or any other symbols and such of our sorority. That is ridiculous! I praise God and worship him also! But if I choose to be a part of an org. that is my choice and as long as I know I am not compromising my beliefs or standards, then more power to me! Rituals are just something shared amongst members to unify them - and just that. Nothing More. I'm in charge of our new members and I make damn sure, there'll never be hazed while in Chi Omega. I never was and to me, that doesn't promote sisterhood (brotherhood), it just fosters negativity and bad feelings. I feel sorry for Kristen and Barb that they are so hung up on their little lives and the bad things that happen. All I can say is to Let Go and Let God. I hope he gives you forgiveness, so you can forgive the people who wronged you and enables you to move on in your lives in stead of just dwelling on your miserable life. You think that you have so much power with your attorneys and such. Obviously you don't, so move on. I know I shouldn't even waste my time on this topic but thats just my 2 cents.

[AngelPhiSig]

OKAY-

As a greek, as a Chrisitian, and as a past Pagan who's best friend is Pagan here are my two cents!

I didnt read all of the posts because I got tooo angry.

There is nothing wrong with being Greek. If you are a strong person, you will not fall for worshipping someone you dont want to. There are Greek orgs founded in Christianity, this does not mean that a person in this org will force someone to become a Christian. My sorority was founded without scripture, and to not be biased aganst anyones religion. THESE ORGANIZATIONS WERE FOUNDED IN A DIFFERENT TIME! Things were different back in the late 1800's and early 1900's.

About Paganism. Witchcraft is a religion. Wicca is also a religion, they are seperate to clear that up... BEING PAGAN ISNT BAD! It is something someone believes, you cannot make a person believe. And before all of you christians (YES I AM CHRISTIAN!) jump down my throat, The Catholic church's mass is derived from pagan ritual. (do some research, you'll learn these things!) I have researched many world religions, and this is what I found.

You cannot discriminate because of beliefs... the person sitting next to you in church may have a totally different view of God than you do...

Thats my two cents, just gimme a email if you need more info

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"...A dynamic sisterhood of powerful and passionate women maintaining uncompromising principles, igniting positive change, and embracing individuality!"

Phi Sigma Sigma - Gamma Gamma Chapter
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1-9-4-6 Doohretsis!

Tau Beta Sigma - Delta Omicron Chapter
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Go Golden Chickens! I mean EAGLES!

There are only a few good things that came out of Clarion- Chris Kirkpatrick of NSync, Kurt Angle (Pre WWF!) and any PHI SIGMA SIGMA!

[AlphaSigLana]

Goodness Goodness. I am a Christian and I can't believe the things the first two wrote, but i have a feeling it was someone playing a joke- who is angry with the greek system. They didn't sound very intelligent. Even though Greek organizations have secrets it is no different then people who lead one life and then go home and lead another life. You know what they say about behind closed doors. Plus Sororitys and Fraternitys don't pray to idols. We have chosen things that represent the ideals of our sorority/fraternity. I could go on and on and debate this, but I don't think it will be worth my breath. Not all Greeks haze and are brutal and not all Christians actaully follow the Bible, pray, nor read their Bible so who may cast the first stone?