Thinking About Disaffiliation

[clemsongirl]

Without touching on the hazing bit, which others have covered, you'll probably be limited in jobs in FSL without a fraternal affiliation. Many positions I see posted have a requirement or expectation that applicants be a member of an inter/national fraternity or sorority.

[33girl]

^Unless OPis trying to clear the way to AI into something else.

[Kevin]

As an attorney, the legal definition and the Sigma Nu (which I assume is the FIPG) definition of hazing are very different.

[Titchou]

Originally Posted by Kevin

As an attorney, the legal definition and the Sigma Nu (which I assume is the FIPG) definition of hazing are very different.

You know what happens when you assume.....

[Kevin]

Originally Posted by Titchou

You know what happens when you assume.....

FIPG:

http://fipg.org/

Any action taken or situation created, intentionally, whether on or off fraternity premises, to produce mental or physical discomfort, embarrassment, harassment, or ridicule. Such activities may include but are not limited to the following: use of alcohol, paddling in any form, creation of excessive fatigue, physical and psychological shocks, quests, treasure hunts, scavenger hunts, road trips or any other such activities carried on outside or inside of the confines of the chapter house; wearing of public apparel which is conspicuous and not normally in good taste, engaging in public stunts and buffoonery, morally degrading or humiliating games and activities, and other activities which are not consistent with academic achievement, fraternal law, ritual or policy or the regulations and policies of the educational institution or applicable state law.

Sigma Nu:

http://www.sigmanu.org/file/collegia...guidelines.pdf

Any action taken or situation created, intentionally, whether on or off fraternity premises, to produce mental or physical discomfort, embarrassment, harassment, or ridicule. Such activities may include but are not limited to the following: use of alcohol, paddling in any form, creation of excessive fatigue, physical and psychological shocks, quests, treasure hunts, scavenger hunts, road trips or any other such activities carried on outside or inside of the confines of the chapter house; wearing of public apparel which is conspicuous and not normally in good taste, engaging in public stunts and buffoonery, morally degrading or humiliating games and activities, and other activities which are not consistent with academic achievement, fraternal law, ritual or policy or the regulations and policies of the educational institution or applicable state law.

Sometimes, it's pretty safe to assume. Most NIC and NPC (maybe all) are insured through the FIPG. I can't imagine having a different hazing policy than the company which provides you liability insurance.

[Titchou]

Most NPC groups use MJ Insurance now. And my statement was vis-a-vis state law which you didn't quote.

[7Silver17]

Since we are on the topic of defining hazing. I know that my organization believes what it is doing is not hazing, yet FSL professionals have told me it is.

In our new member education, there is NO paddling, physical/emotional/mental abuse, or anything very obvious of the like. What is currently in place that is debatable is how the information during new member education is presented.

As a member of an MGC organization, I want to know what is the true definition of hazing. My FSL AD told me that it is up to an individual's interpretation, but that just makes it harder for me to prove or explain whether something is hazing or not, esp when it comes to subtle hazing.

Any more thoughts or advice?

[Kevin]

Originally Posted by 7Silver17

As a member of an MGC organization, I want to know what is the true definition of hazing. My FSL AD told me that it is up to an individual's interpretation, but that just makes it harder for me to prove or explain whether something is hazing or not, esp when it comes to subtle hazing.

Any more thoughts or advice?

Sure. Run the facts through these three lenses: The organization in question's own policies, state law and the Student Code of Conduct. All three will probably be different.

If things are still unclear, you might find that the chapter in question's national office will be extremely helpful in cooperating with you and responding to your concerns. Absent a willing/helpful national organization, you might collect more facts or bring things to your superiors or to the university general counsel.

With most NIC groups (not all), you will find a national office which is probably even more eager than you are to get to the bottom of things and take appropriate action.

[Titchou]

That is very true if it isn't spelled out by your insurance company or the state. You might check those two but I would imagine your national org is following their insurance - at least in writing. But what I might think is hazing, you might not and vice versa. It's often hard to say. We have to write "happy notes" to people at work on their birthdays. I absolutely HATE doing it. I would consider that hazing if it was my sorority....but someone else might not.

[Sen's Revenge]

Is your FSL AD a member of an MGC org?

[33girl]

Originally Posted by Sen's Revenge

Is your FSL AD a member of an MGC org?

This. Some people think that anything short of not initiating someone 5 minutes after they receive their bid is hazing.

Has your organization (on a national level) struggled with disaffiliation and member retention? Have a lot of chapters been closed for risk management issues? Are universities reluctant to recognize your group because of its practices? Those would be a better indication of whether your org is truly hazing than an AD who sounds like they drank the kool-aid and who thinks any way other than the way their conference does it is wrong.

If you have your own personal issues with your group, then working them out somehow before you enter the FSL field is imperative. But that doesn't mean your whole org should get thrown under the bus.

[7Silver17]

Originally Posted by 33girl

This. Some people think that anything short of not initiating someone 5 minutes after they receive their bid is hazing.

Has your organization (on a national level) struggled with disaffiliation and member retention? Have a lot of chapters been closed for risk management issues? Are universities reluctant to recognize your group because of its practices? Those would be a better indication of whether your org is truly hazing than an AD who sounds like they drank the kool-aid and who thinks any way other than the way their conference does it is wrong.

If you have your own personal issues with your group, then working them out somehow before you enter the FSL field is imperative. But that doesn't mean your whole org should get thrown under the bus.

To Sen's Revenge & GreekOne,

My FSL AD is from NPHC.

[7Silver17]

Originally Posted by 33girl

This. Some people think that anything short of not initiating someone 5 minutes after they receive their bid is hazing.

Has your organization (on a national level) struggled with disaffiliation and member retention? Have a lot of chapters been closed for risk management issues? Are universities reluctant to recognize your group because of its practices? Those would be a better indication of whether your org is truly hazing than an AD who sounds like they drank the kool-aid and who thinks any way other than the way their conference does it is wrong.

If you have your own personal issues with your group, then working them out somehow before you enter the FSL field is imperative. But that doesn't mean your whole org should get thrown under the bus.

Not a single chapter had ever been responsible or have been shut down for any reason. Chapters have just naturally died out from lack of membership. Most disaffiliation reasons that I know of have been members not joining for the right reasons and even members doing things they are not supposed to do (e.g. stealing money, etc.). But of course, when it comes to national numbers on disaffiliation, I have no idea. No undergrad actives have ever been notified of those statistics or anything of the like.

[GreekOne]

You sound like you are a genuine caring, concerned person. If you don't do everything in your power (calls, letters, etc) to try and shine a light on what you feel is inappropriate this will stay with you forever. God forbid that someone is hurt down the road as a result of whatever you deem the problem. I have been a member of three different alumnae chapters over the years and every time I moved, they were complete strangers. However, those women quickly became friends. While you may not see the value in that now, you may as you find yourself in a new city down the road. I would work from within to be a change agent.

[Titchou]

I have chatted with the OP offline. I'm not going to reveal anything I think OP would rather leave unsaid. There were 4 items that concern her. NONE of them have anything to do with physical hazing. ALL 4 of them are done by various groups -I'm including NPC, IFC and NPHC groups of which I have knowledge as told to me by friends/relatives who are members of some of those groups. So I am not surprised that she is getting different answers from different people in Greek Life because they all belong to different groups. That being said, my group forbids two of them as we have determined that they might,maybe,possibly could be considered psychological hazing by some women. NONE of them are "specifically" listed in the information Kevin posted though in the NPC statement on hazing anything that could cause discomfort or embarrassment is banned. So,what we have is someone who is concerned about all 4 things grouped together which made/make her uncomfortable. And she should be respected for her feelings even if some of us would not be uncomfortable with those activities. Hope this helps!