Abortion and Mens Rights

[Blackwatch]

...But it isn't. This is a very complicated issue. In my first post, I pointed out that men, women and THE CHILD have rights that are affected by this issue. In subsequent posts, I see people talking about men's rights and women's rights, but what about the rights of the child. Men and women have rights to protect themselves, but who protects the children?

From Refined diva....

I may CHOOSE to have sex, but I may NOT choose to become pregnant.

It is this logic that has gotten us to this stage where we are weighing the lives of unborn children in the balance with our desires to pervert the intent of sex. Ultimately, sex is for the union of two people in holy matrimony to become like God in experiencing the ecstacy of producing life through love. (Gen. Chaptes 1&2). Though sex can be and is enjoyable, do not deprive it from it's divine purpose of giving us the possibility of brining forth life. Sex is more than just a pleasurable play thing, it is a form of worship. Pregnancy and the possibility of producing life is not a choice, it is a blessing from God, the ultimate blessing mind you. If it were a choice, then people having sex who did not want to get pregnant would never get pregnant and vice versa. This thinking shows how far we have gone from God's purpose for our lives and bodies.

As for swamp thang's post, I would like to urge all of us to consider Dr. King's sentiments in the letter from the Birmingham Jail. When the clergy of the south were implying that Dr. King was not right for breaking the laws of Jim Crow by protesting, Dr. King responded that just because something is illegal does not make it wrong. When you have an unjust law, you are not morally bound to adhere to it. In the case of a man's rights to a child legally beginning after birth, it is clearly an unjust and illogical law. We as a moral people should focus on the moral issues behind abortion and sex and decide to live our lives according to that moral law, not a socially constructed legal system.

[thesweetestone]

I don't think men should have any say in what women decide to do with their bodies. That's way abortion ids legal now. The responsiblity for the child will basically be the mother's and if she is not ready to take it on no man should have a right to make her.

[straightBOS]

Originally posted by Blackwatch
... I understand that a pregnancy can be brutal on a woman's body, and women have the perogative to decide not to go through tha pain of childbirth, morning sickness, hormonal changes, weight gain, etc. that are associated with preganancy. This decision is made WHEN YOU DECIDE TO HAVE SEX!!!! Once you decide to have sex, then you are agreeing to accept the responsibilties that come with that decision... including the possibility of a baby, emotional and spiritual attachment, history and intimacy, etc. Sex is not casual, and when we decide to have sex, we should know that it is one of the most important decisions that we will ever make.

That woman has no right to deny that child of the possibilty of life and potentiality. If she does not want to be a part of the baby's life, then fine, but she has no right to decide that the baby cannot have life, only God rightly makes that decision. If the man wants the right to raise his child, then why deny him that right? The issue of a women's right to choose has diverted attention from the main issue in this case, the man's right to parent and the child's right to have life. The women's right to choose should end with what she does with her own body, not what she does to her child's body. Don't want to be pregnant or raise a child? Then don't have sex, period! That is a woman's (and a man's) right to choose.

Actually that is inaccurate. A woman has the right to deny a FETUS the right to life. It's already been determined that if the fetus is dependant on the mother for survival, then technically it is still a part of her body and she can do as she pleases.

Communication is key, but knowledge is power. It doesn't really matter if a woman says she will never abort. Because when she gets pregnant she might decide to reverse her stance. Does the man have basis for action then because they communicated befiore a preganacy? Nope. Because he should KNOW that he has no rights. And what she says and what she decides to do with her own body is protected under law.

In this case, I am conflicted because I hate to see the man so handicapped in the decision to become a father or not. But, this is biology and law. Biology decides that the woman is the one who gets pregnant, so what happens to a body during a pregnancy happens only to her. Law says the baby is not a baby when it has no ability to thrive on its own. No rights for guys unless they find a way to grow a child to term outside of the woman's body.

[Professor]

Are you suggesting that men don't also feel hurt, loss, have need for counseling?

Originally posted by RedefinedDiva
This question is not totally on topic, but it's in the same ballpark.
For the men that believe that you should have rights to a child, what would you do in a situation where a woman has a miscarriage or has a stillborn baby? Will you assume responsibility for funeral costs? Counseling? Medical expenses? Do you feel that you would suffer the same emotional loss that a woman does?

[Professor]

If an man is not ready to take on the financial responsibility of a child and may not want a child then the woman should shoulder the finances by herself?

Originally posted by thesweetestone
I don't think men should have any say in what women decide to do with their bodies. That's way abortion ids legal now. The responsiblity for the child will basically be the mother's and if she is not ready to take it on no man should have a right to make her.

[Swamp Thang]

To the last two posters, what common sense makes the fetus not 1/2 the Man's till it pokes its head into the outside world.

Their's a time when the fetus isn't 1/2 the Man's... and that's when the fetus is called "an egg".

You and I go 1/2 on a sub. I have the sub in my possession (like Jared )

Is that sub all mine till I pull it out the bag and give you your 1/2?

Hell naw.. cause without your 1/2 of the $$$, I couldn't have PURCHASED the sub...

Okay.. it's a slaw example... but y'all know that we have laws that are on the books to protect our citizens for certain things.. but have been used by lawyers to include things the law wasn't meant for. Once an egg is fertilized, it has 1/2 the Man's DNA and 1/2 the Woman's..

[SeriousAKA]

I'm reading what everyone has to say and let me offer my opinion. I stated in another post that in this day and age there is no reason why pregnancy should occur, trust me I know nothing is 100%, but you can get very, very close. Here's the real question, everyday a woman decides to have a child that her "man" has said he does not want yet once the child is here, he's responsible. Why and how is that fair to him? A woman can decide not to have a child without his support or even including him in the decision process. I don't beliecve that this is fair. I am a firm believer that once you choose to have sex, you know that there is the possibility of becoming pregnant. Being mature enough to decide to have sex to me means being mature enough to raise a child. Each person you have sex with, you should think about whether or not you want to deal with this person for the rest of your life. If a woman has decided that she never wants to have children, then why not do what needs to be done to ensure that? Is abortion the answer?

Should a man be able to petition the court to stop his girlfriend from having an abortion? Well, that is his right. Should he win? Who am I to say, all I know is that if he is willing to step up to the plate, why can't he? Why should he be denyed his child? Women want equal rights on all counts so men should have the same rights, to decide whether or not to have a child.

[SeriousAKA]

One last thing, let me state my stance on abortion for the record. I consider myself to be pro-choice for political purposes because I believe that a woman has the right to chose. The Lord gave us that gift, the gift of choice. On a spiritual and personal level, I am against abortion because I believe life is life no matter how the scientists define it. Ultimately, the decision to abort or not to abort will be between the woman and God.

[straightBOS]

Originally posted by Swamp Thang
To the last two posters, what common sense makes the fetus not 1/2 the Man's till it pokes its head into the outside world.

Their's a time when the fetus isn't 1/2 the Man's... and that's when the fetus is called "an egg".

You and I go 1/2 on a sub. I have the sub in my possession (like Jared )

Is that sub all mine till I pull it out the bag and give you your 1/2?

Hell naw.. cause without your 1/2 of the $$$, I couldn't have PURCHASED the sub...

Okay.. it's a slaw example... but y'all know that we have laws that are on the books to protect our citizens for certain things.. but have been used by lawyers to include things the law wasn't meant for. Once an egg is fertilized, it has 1/2 the Man's DNA and 1/2 the Woman's..

Okay, so the man can then take his half an embryo and go?

[Swamp Thang]

my point exactly... he contributed 1/2 of the makeup of said child just as the Woman did. But, y'all already know that.... Just go ahead and concied what is the truth.. If it's the Man's sperm as it goes into the womb and it's the Man's child once the baby comes out of the womb.., it stands to common sense and reason that it's also the Man's child in the womb..

[RedefinedDiva]

Originally posted by Professor
Are you suggesting that men don't also feel hurt, loss, have need for counseling?

It was not a suggestion. It was a question? Nothing more, nothing less.


Originally posted by Blackwatch
Ultimately, sex is for the union of two people in holy matrimony to become like God in experiencing the ecstacy of producing life through love.

That may be the case, however, if that is how things are today, why make birth control pills, condoms, and other forms of protection? If you know that you are STD-free, as well as your partner, then why not go at it without protection? Bottom line is, you wouldn't. It is unrealistic to think that all people will wait until marriage to have sex. It only happens for a small percentage. True, one must take responsibility for what comes out of sex, but if a woman chooses not to carry a baby, then that's her choice. Regardless of how one person feels about this on a religious/spiritual standpoint, someone else's religious views are totally different.

The matter can be argued until dinosaurs walk the earth again, but the answer will remain the same. NO ONE CAN FORCE A WOMAN TO CARRY A BABY. As straightBOS said, "Law says the baby is not a baby when it has no ability to thrive on its own. No rights for guys unless they find a way to grow a child to term outside of the woman's body."

Swamp thing, to break it down like you did, what if we both were hungry and you went out and bought a sub. Only thing is that I don't want the half of the sub that's mine. Do I still have to give you money for my half even if I don't want it? Like you said, "Once an egg is fertilized, it has 1/2 the Man's DNA and 1/2 the Woman's.. " So what if I don't want MY 1/2 to develop?

[Swamp Thang]

... that's the Million Dollar QUEStion RedifinedDiva...

The Fetus is made from the union of Woman and Man so, we'd think the Man would have some feeling of possession of the child being that it's his and some say so...

The moral issue is that 'his and her' child is developing in "her" uterus which is hers to do with as she sees fit.

These are hard QUEStions because there is black and white answers surrounded by shades of grey answers..

[Swamp Thang]

not too long ago in history, The Law was that African American People weren't people, but PROPERTY...

Y'all can get off the law of the land.. and continue to have this great discussion based on what's right...

[straightBOS]

Originally posted by Swamp Thang
not too long ago in history, The Law was that African American People weren't people, but PROPERTY...

Y'all can get off the law of the land.. and continue to have this great discussion based on what's right...

Huh? Did you miss the part about biology?

If you have the capablity to grow a child to term w/o a woman's body, then you can go play daddy anyday and no law can bother you. Until then...

[thesweetestone]

Originally posted by Professor
If an man is not ready to take on the financial responsibility of a child and may not want a child then the woman should shoulder the finances by herself?

Duh! Women do it everyday! Ever heard the term "dead beat dad?"