Getting Disgusted...

[LexiKD]

ZTAngel: I agree with many of your points. Joining a sorority will not assure you that you will never make a mistake again. But it should help you make better choices. Not every member of every org. feels as if the values of that org. is the exact same as theirs...but you should at least be able to relate and for some they do feel that the values match and if you decide to join you have an obligation to attempt to not only do good for that org. but for yourself.

In this situation we can ask where is the article about their community service or GPA or anything else. But let's face it, we are in the spotlight b/c every article that shows how out of hand we are backs up every other article saying that we are binge drinking sexual aggressors.

Rapes happen everyday and my heart goes out to all. It only makes the papers if they can not only put blame on the person responsible but their org, and anyone around them as well. What I want to know is why was this women drinking so much, why was she drinking at a fraternity house(NPC resloution), and where were her friends during this? I am not putting blame on her, just saying that as women we need to watch what type of situation we are put in and what we allow ourselves to do and understand that we are responsible for our actions as much as anyone else, not forget them b/c we could be victims.

Both parties have tons to answer for and your right, it's not the best, but at least the national org. and local school will use them as an example and maybe that may aid in better decision making for the rest of the groups.

I just wish that for one moment we could all focus on the BIG PICTURE. Maybe then everyone could see the light.

[LeslieAGD]

Originally posted by Lady Pi Phi
I hate how they make fraternities and soroities out to be some alcohol binge fest.

Unfortunately, when Greeks behave this way, we don't have to make them try very hard.

This situation is disgraceful.

[DeltAlum]

Leslie,

Which is one of the real points of the thread.

Lenox,

I'm not tired of the generation or the good people I know in the chapters I work with. I'm tired of the attitude that you don't have to take responsibility for actions -- until it's too late.

I know just a little about people in this age group -- having children ranging in age from 18 through 25. They learn and grow, and so do I.

[LeslieAGD]

Originally posted by DeltAlum
Leslie,

Which is one of the real points of the thread.

I know, I was agreeing with you.

[Tom Earp]

James, in response to your PM, YES, I agree with you along with Brother Lenoxx.

Actually I agree with all on this thread.

Young people will be young people and unfortunally sometimes do not think before they do!

This is the first time on their own and many cannot really handle it and go a little wild or stupid!

It is still a learning process for them.

We as Almus who work with our chapters can only do so much as we are not sitting on the door step to keep an eye on them.

It is saddening everytime I read of a subject of abuse of any kind as the media will pick up on it much faster than teh good that we as Greek Organizations do. I think DeltaAlum will agree with that as he is with a media group.

Then as I said on a thread that I started about the young man a Phi Kappa Phi from U Kansas who is riding a bike from San Fancisco to Washing DC. for their charity event, this is the true spirit of what we do.

I do not know the answere to many questions and wish I did.

But as you can tell from the many undergrads, there is hope yet for our country!

[cash78mere]

Originally posted by Lady Pi Phi

Now, this is just my opinion, but we can't blame one side for this. We can't blame the males. No one forces these girls to drink at the parties. It is their own choice. They know how alcohol affects people, and they know how alcohol affects themselves. If females want to protect themselevs, maybe they shouldn't drink, or at least limit their alcohol intake. Everone needs to take responsibility for their own actions.

Emily

Lady PiPhi-

You CANNOT blame the victim. period.

[Kevin]

What you're all saying is that undergrads are the problems here. Often (and I'd even venture to say most of the time) the true fault lies with local alums.

Your local alums went through in the 50's, 60's, 70's, 80's or what have you... They were at the time under a different set of rules, a different culture. Some of them (Dr's and lawyers they may be) do not have a very firm grasp of the current culture and climate in the Greek Life world.

IHQ's, HQ's and such need to be proactive and offer training to the alums that are active locally and not just assume that these folks (as good intentioned as they may be) know what's best for the chapter.

I've actually seen the alums of a chapter totally turn it around. One of our chapters here in Oklahoma a few years back was in a really bad place. They had some serious allegations that could have meant losing their charter that they've had since 1909.

The local alums were able to come in and totally turn things around, saving the chapter. I leave out the details because they are unimportant.

I've seen it the other way as well. A local chapter of a national NIC fraternity (that shall remain unnamed) is now no longer recognized by the University (but still functioning) due to the fact that their alums actually condoned the fact that they had a 14 year old girl serving beer from a keg, in their house at a philanthropy for MDA. The chapter (and I can only assume this was a course of action approved by their alums) carried out a PR war against the University and IFC in the school's newspaper saying that their punishment was overdone and the event was blown out of proportion... etc... their 1.8 house GPA not their fault... etc..

Alums, it goes both ways. Collegiate chapters need their freedom. They do not need alums stepping on their toes whenever they try to do something. But they do need good advice and when necessary a guiding hand pointing them in the right direction. A lot of your chapter closings could have been prevented by proactive and informed local alums.

LHT
Kevin
MT #5
University of Central Oklahoma

[DeltAlum]

Sorry Kevin,

I can't entirely agree. A weak alumni base can certainly be a factor -- sometimes a large one -- but in most cases they aren't the ones who are pouring drinks for underaged people at parties or breaking other rules on a daily basis. I say most, because I realize that some alums help perpetuate hazing traditions, etc. That's unfortunate. I think it's safe to say that those who are in positions of trust such as chapter advisor know better these days, although that may not be the case in every chapter.

Bottom line is that the undergraduates have the final decisions. The alums are not generally there for every party and/or function.

As James (a wise but sometimes confusing man) pointed out in another thread, training for alumni volunteers is also sadly lacking. I couldn't agree more. I think his specific example regarded alcohol counseling, but the fact is that we get little formal training unless we are able to attend division or national meetings. When I first became an assistant chapter advisor, I got a copy of the chapter management guidelines, risk management documents, etc. Fortunately, I was able to attend (sometimes at my own expense, sometimes not) some meetings and receive some training. Still, spending a weekend on several topics is not terribly enlightening when you consider the depth of some of these problems.

I don't know how to fix that problem. It's difficult enough to find chapter advisors in some cases, let alone assistants, house corporation members and others. We're busy people with full time jobs and families to raise.

In the end, it's the undergraduate officers and members who have to decide whether they want the chapter and national organization to survive.

Alumni can help, but we don't live with you. And we can't force compliance with the rules. That's your job.

[DeltaBetaBaby]

Originally posted by ktsnake

I've seen it the other way as well. A local chapter of a national NIC fraternity (that shall remain unnamed) is now no longer recognized by the University (but still functioning) due to the fact that their alums actually condoned the fact that they had a 14 year old girl serving beer from a keg, in their house at a philanthropy for MDA. The chapter (and I can only assume this was a course of action approved by their alums) carried out a PR war against the University and IFC in the school's newspaper saying that their punishment was overdone and the event was blown out of proportion... etc... their 1.8 house GPA not their fault... etc..

Wow, this is a really good point. Last night was the final Saturday of the semester, so every house had their big parties or block parties or whatever. Recent alums were some of the most out-of-control men I saw at some of these things. They also come down with the attitude that they can haze the pledges, and a chapter on this campus recently got in some trouble with the local law enforcement due to this.

The other day, I was at a bar with some fraternity men, and they showed me the new drinking game their traveling consultant had taught them.

Phi Mu has a policy that alums and collegians MAY NOT drink together. Does anyone else have something similar?

[Lady Pi Phi]

I wasn't blaming the victim

[nucutiepie]

I feel like part of the problem is this college culture that seems to assert that for the four years we are in college, we are free to act like asses whenever the feeling strikes us. To a certain extent, it's a matter of people acting mature and taking responsibility for their actions... whether it be NOT having that last beer (or four) that will set you over the edge and make you do something stupid, not picking a fight with someone just because his fraternity is different from yours, not going around vandalizing property just for the hell of it.

Four or five fraternity chapters have folded or lost their charter at my school in the last four years alone. One more is currently in danger of losing their charter due to an alcohol violation that occured during a pledge mom hunt (a pledge got sent to the hospital with alcohol poisoning). While two more chapters have arrived to take their place, our fraternity scene is in a state of decline, even though no one, not even the administration, really wants to see this happen.

What needs to happen, in my opinion, is for people to take individual responsibility for their own behavior and collective responsibility for the behavior of their organization as a whole. Membership in a Greek organization is a privelege and does not give us the right to drink irresponsibly and damage property and lives.

[cash78mere]

Originally posted by Lady Pi Phi

Now, this is just my opinion, but we can't blame one side for this. We can't blame the males. No one forces these girls to drink at the parties. It is their own choice.
Emily

By not blaming the males, you are blaming the victims. How does not forcing a woman to drink at a party put her at fault for getting raped? It is their own choice to drink, it is not their own choice to get raped. I don't care if you're piss-ass drunk and can't stand up straight--if you say NO it means NO. no excuses.

[Lady Pi Phi]

No I don't think you understand what I am trying to say. Yes, No means No, and yes the male took it too far. But let's get this, should a women go off with some strange guy? Not unless she's willing to take a risk, I'm not condoning the actiona of rape I'm saying in many situations this can be avoided.
I have a story. I was at a bar and Ibeen drinking quite a bit, and I was dancing with this guy. He asked me to come with him and I did. Well we end up in his car making out in his car. I realized I had made a huge mistake and told him I was leaving. Well I had to fight with him to leave because he didn't want to let me go. Fortunately he knew that no meant no. However, that whole situation could have been avoided if i had just stayed with my friend. I didn't know what I was doing because I had been drinking. I was lucky. Some girls are not as fortunate. But like I said before I could have avoided it all by staying away from him. Not all rapes can be avoided like that, but some can. That's all I'm saying. It doesn't excuse the behaviour, but women just need to be more cautious about who they are with.

[James]

I am sure you weren't . . . but it kind of goes to show that "Rape" and "sexual assault" have become such emotive and political terms they are almost impossible to just chat about. *sigh* Which is important.

Originally posted by Lady Pi Phi
I wasn't blaming the victim

[DeltAlum]

All,

For the record I think James is correct above.

But that argument has nothing to do with the real subject.

I guess I'm finished with this thread because I can't seem to keep it on topic.

It really wasn't meant to be about rape, or underage drinking or any of the symptoms. Those are probably more important, and deserve their own threads.

It wasn't meant to be another tirade on unfair media coverage. It seems to me that the original story was pretty well ballanced.

This one was supposed to be about chapters closing because of not taking responsibility for their own actions. Breaking laws and breaking rules -- a lack of accountability and what universities are doing about it. Not about the laws and rules themselves. At least that's what I read and understood from the orignial article and the dean's quotes.

This is a public forum, and we can certainly chat about anything we want -- but this is not the direction I intended for this discussion.